How do you explain overnight Healing in your game?

[Mallus]

Originally Posted by Naszir

Actually, can't you still heal someone with powers like Healing Word and Cure Light Wounds even if a character doesn't have any healing surges left?

Yes. For example, Lay on Hands uses one of the paladin's Healing Surges, not the recipients.

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by Naszir

Actually, can't you still heal someone with powers like Healing Word and Cure Light Wounds even if a character doesn't have any healing surges left?

Depends. Healing Word requires the recipient to have a Healing Surge left. Cure Light Wounds not. As Mallus mentioned, neither does Lay on Hands.
And there is some healing available entirely independent from healing surges. Regeneration for example. Some powers just recover hit points. (But those powers often require making attacks, so they are not so great to help a commoner get through the night.)

[Obryn]

For any creature with statistics, they have 1 healing surge at Heroic tier, 2 at Paragon, and 3 at Epic.

I'd just say a non-statted NPC probably has 1, if it becomes important.

-O

[Garthanos]

Originally Posted by Naszir

Garth,

If this were true why come up with the Bloodied Condition? It would have made more sense to come up with a different word. It seems that a lot of the confusion that comes from how the loss of "hit points" comes from "damage" and then reaching a "bloodied condition" is poor wording. Yes, this can be remedied but why continue with such official descriptions if it is a poor representation of what is actually happening in combat?

Differentiation technical terms from descriptions

Bloodied isnt a description its a technical term:

• When my halfling is bloodied...he looks frazzled and distraught, worn around the edges.
• When the ranger is bloodied he is sweaty and breathing heavy, his head is lowered and yup he has a scratch or bruise or two
• When the barbarian is bloodied he has tons of nicks and cuts that blead a little at first but are shortly brown marks.(ok only tons because he is high level)

What term would you prefer? the barbarian would hate it if we called it something else but the halfling would love it.

"Winded" kind of works for some characters.

[Naszir]

Yes, but these technical terms lend themselves naturally to certain descriptions. Being "hit" by a weapon/power that does "damage" and makes you "bloodied" all point to physical respresentations rather than a generic reduction of staminia/luck/skill.

It does make sense to try and get more creative with how we describe in game damage. I like the way you have creatively come up with hit point loss for the halfling rogue.

I guess Ailing would be a more generic term but it doesn't seem to have the same kind of umph behind it that bloodied does.

[Bumbles]

Originally Posted by Mallus

Your absolutely right that everyone has their own threshold of ridiculous. I've always found it jarring that, according to the rules, you can't break a bone in D&D. No matter how big a cliff you fall off of. Now matter how many times a titan hits you with his mattock. No broken bones, ever. There is no procedure for it.

I wouldn't put it as "according to the rules, you can't break a bone in D&D" but rather, as "the rules don't account for details of injuries such as breaking bones" which puts a different spin on things.

I do recall Tabula Rasa the MMORPG did cover it, at least with leg injuries. Of course, you had a science super-suit to heal it rapidly, but you'd still have a movement penalty for a while. So I suppose if one wanted to develop a procedure to handle it, that could be done.

I shudder at the complexity though.

[Lizard]

Originally Posted by Mustrum_Ridcully

NPCs don't have this feature. Is almost the distinguishing feature between an heroic adventurer - a PC - and an NPC.

Except they do, if they're with the PCs. I've seen nothing to indicate that if the Human Wizard (4th level Controller from the MM, not one built with classes) who is travelling with you is injured, that he will not be at full hit points at the end of an Extended Rest.

I find the healing system works fine for explaining "adventurer" damage occuring during an "adventure". It's usually easy to describe wounds as less serious, or do the "It was less severe than you thought" routine, and to assume off-stage use of minor magics. It only becomes a problem when you wish to interact with the world and expect something more than "PCs are *special*" as an explanation.

[Garthanos]

Originally Posted by Naszir

Yes, but these technical terms lend themselves naturally to certain descriptions. Being "hit" by a weapon/power that does "damage" and makes you "bloodied" all point to physical respresentations rather than a generic reduction of staminia/luck/skill.

It does make sense to try and get more creative with how we describe in game damage. I like the way you have creatively come up with hit point loss for the halfling rogue.

I guess Ailing would be a more generic term but it doesn't seem to have the same kind of umph behind it that bloodied does.

The wizard held up his hand and said he doesnt like "winded" much more than the barbarian and no better than bloodied... as he uses last ditch application of his craft as the key element in his defense and which doesn't involve running about unless you consider slipping partially in to an adjacent plane of existance running --- sigh.

The narrative is ours and the players. We were given explicit permission/recommendation for the players to visualize/skin the offensive elements ... it is barely a house rule that I allow the players visualization rights for there defense.
(even if sometimes they want me to do it for them I am well aware of the pattern and use it on NPC's who have hit points.)

I made bloodieable minion rules specifically to deal with npc's who don't minimize most attacks. Some will even survive attacks which RAW would kill them (one of the effects of applying healing to a minion) and be hobbling around with those real injuries which last for a month.. without ritual treatment. So yeah I made house rules that make interaction with npc's cleaner, they dont seem that big of deal to me.

[N0Man]

Originally Posted by Naszir

Actually, can't you still heal someone with powers like Healing Word and Cure Light Wounds even if a character doesn't have any healing surges left?

Well, NPCs and monsters get 1 surge per tier (but generally don't have the ability to spend them on their own).

If a power causes someone to spend a surge, then they can't be healed unless they have a surge left, with one exception. A dying character can be restored to 1 HP with a healing power, however they cannot recover in this manner by rolling a 20 for a dying saving throw.

[Flipguarder]

At the end of the day the rules for npcs are actually fairly simulationist. You get one "second wind" (or healing surge) per tier, and you don't heal automatically during extended rest.
If you want simulationist, and still want to go fight in several epic battles a day, you are probably going to die just from the sheer fact that its a decent simulation of what would happen in that situation.

[ST]

Hey, at any time if a group reaches consensus that they want to do so, they can go hog wild, bring in GURPS rules for bone mending, find out how many months of bed rest someone needs for their leg to heal, etc.

That's no problem at all. The group can always assent to house rules, bringing in whatever they want.

They're not in the rulebooks to start, because the design assumes players get to keep their PCs in reasonably functional shape, unless they actually die. Your group doesn't have to handle it that way, if they collectively decide they'd rather do it some other way.

Heck, it's even possible to bring in long-term PC injury and yet not make things more dangerous -- rule that a PC failing their death save isn't dead, but badly injured, broken bones, etc. Instead of a raise ritual, they'd need a similarly rare mend body ritual, or otherwise months of bed rest. For an adventuring party it's practially the same outcome (fix with magic, or reroll), but at least it leaves retired characters as theoretically hobbling around somewhere rather than mouldering away.

[N0Man]

Originally Posted by Lizard

Except they do, if they're with the PCs. I've seen nothing to indicate that if the Human Wizard (4th level Controller from the MM, not one built with classes) who is travelling with you is injured, that he will not be at full hit points at the end of an Extended Rest.

You say they do because the rules don't say they don't. The problem is, the rules don't say they do either. If it's not stated in the rules, then the DM is the judge (possibly with input of players). The DM can (and should) base this decision on what works best for the plot, which is exactly how I prefer it.

I find the healing system works fine for explaining "adventurer" damage occuring during an "adventure". It's usually easy to describe wounds as less serious, or do the "It was less severe than you thought" routine, and to assume off-stage use of minor magics. It only becomes a problem when you wish to interact with the world and expect something more than "PCs are *special*" as an explanation.

PCs are special. They have always been special. How special, and how they are special, has varied from edition to edition, but it's really always been true.

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by Bumbles

I wouldn't put it as "according to the rules, you can't break a bone in D&D" but rather, as "the rules don't account for details of injuries such as breaking bones" which puts a different spin on things.

I do recall Tabula Rasa the MMORPG did cover it, at least with leg injuries. Of course, you had a science super-suit to heal it rapidly, but you'd still have a movement penalty for a while. So I suppose if one wanted to develop a procedure to handle it, that could be done.

I shudder at the complexity though.

Call of Cthulhu - Dark Corners of Earth is also a video game that had something like that.

It always felt... painful when you broke your leg and had to run from fishmen. Very atmospheric game in that regard.

[LostSoul]

I think Lizard brings up a lot of good points; I remember the "guy falling off his horse" thread from a year or whenever ago and I think I have a different view of things now.

But first, what happened (is happening) in my game:

The players decided that their PCs had connections to a gang leader in a nearby town. They went to town and tried to lay low; he made a Streetwise check and found them. So he sent a couple of thugs to beat them up and bring them back to him.

Things didn't go so well for the thugs. The PCs decided to let them go with their lives, however.

The PCs have been messing around in the dungeons under the town for a while now. Every so often they come up and rest (and recruit new PCs to replace all the dead ones). The gang leader hasn't struck back. Why not?

Because his NPC thugs are in the heroic tier; they only have 1 healing surge, so it takes them at least 4 days to heal up. That's a little fast for my tastes but whatever. It's cool.

How do I deal with PC healing? I just handwave it. No one in my group really cares, so we don't worry about it.

If I did care, I'd probably put some thought into it. Use a skill challenge, disease track, or something like that to deal with it.


Okay, so the guy who falls off his horse:

He has to be able to break his neck no matter what level he is or how many HP he has. If he's high level it should be very improbable but still possible.

Why? Because if not players can't assume that the game world operates on the same assumptions the real world does. They have to look at everything through the lens of the rules and not just common sense, and I don't think any rule system can do that well.

The DM should make this clear, though. "He can't die, he's 7th level!" "Well, no, he could die, it's just really unlikely. It might be worth some investigation. It's a good bet that it's from some kind of outside force but that's not a given."


Gagging Wizards:

Per the rules there's nothing that says, "This is how you keep someone from casting spells."

In my campaign setting I've decided that magic is cast by speaking words in Primordial (Arcane) or Supernal (Divine) and empowering them with your force of will. (I have no idea what this means for characters - NPCs and PCs alike - who can speak Supernal.) So a Wizard who has been hog tied can still cast spells, but if he's been gagged he cannot.

When the PCs were tangling with a Lich one of them jammed an Immovable Rod (or whatever it's called in 4E) into his mouth to keep him from sustaining a spell. Going with my setting fluff, which I had decided upon before that session, that works.


Which points to something important: the fluff matters. It's what makes the game transcend the limits of the "crunch"; those moments of judgement, where players add their creative input to what's occuring in the game world, take the game to a different level.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

From my own perspective, the change in extended rests is a fix, not a bug.

I remember one published 3.5 adventure where we were aprox. 11th level in a tower full of undead. Basically, we would get about 2-3 encounters before the combination of level drain and running out of spells (to which the lvl drains contributed) caused us to have to hole up and rest. First morning we would blow all our resources on recovering from the lvl drains, with a few minor cures with what was left. We would then have to rest AGAIN if we wanted to have at least 50% HP, and then had to choose EITHER to proceed with full health or with the bulk of our spell casting. To have both would require ANOTHER extended rest - or basically more than 1 day per encounter! It took us over a month of game time to get through the place.

Now, I don't know about you, but that's the opposite of fun. So, for me, a change that prevents that is a good change.

Additionally, part of the 4e ed. design is that no one class is essential - which again is a change for the better. No more having to force a player to be the cleric. Additionally, an all martial (or arcane, or whatever) party is now viable. The new extended rest rules are a major part of what allows this.

Personally, I don't see what the fuss is. No HP based system is anywhere near realistic - all 4e has done is throw away some of the conventions (namely the reliance on consumable items) held in previous editions. If one is so wedded to those conventions that 4e extended rests are a deal breaker and can't be refluffed in such a way to become palatable - well, 4e just isn't the game for you.

[N0Man]

You know, I think I'm just tired of even trying to justify this. Many of the people who are bugged by these things are obviously just finding things to nitpick about, even though they were fine with 3rd editions and other absurd things.

So what if a hero can heal up in a night's rest? Sure that's not realistic, but neither is "getting beaten to a pulp" and then being "completely healed" from a few days bed rest either. Both of them are a big departure to the reality of significant injuries, but I never heard anyone complain, "how could I expect my hero to be as good as new with just a week of bed rest!? He was mauled by a dragon, not sick in bed with the flu."

Face it, they are both unrealistic.

Does it really bother you that heroes can recover from 0 HP to full in one night of rest in 4E? Really?

Does it not bother you that in 3E that a commoner and many wizards could recover from 0 hp to full in 1 day's rest under "long term care" of someone with the heal skill?

Does it not bother you that in 3E that these same wizards with no CON bonus and commoners heal faster under long term care than the hearty high CON fighters and barbarians?

After starting at 0 hit points and using only natural healing, that level 1 commoner with 3 hit points, and that level 10 Wizard with 30 hit points can both recover to full health in 3 days, but a level 10 Barbarian with 90 hit points is going to take 9 days to get back to full!

Oh the resilience of farmers and wizards!

For myself, between the two unrealistic methods of healing, I'd prefer the one that takes less micromanagement and less "ok we rest a day... cast cure light wounds 3 times... rest another day... cast cure light wound 3 more times... rest a day and get my spells back". That's just about my preferences, yours may vary.

In fact, when you are talking about fantasy adventurers shooting fireballs, stopping time, killing dragons, it should be accepted as a fact that there are going to be things that just aren't realistic. All RPGs depart from reality, and frankly, that's often what makes them fun.

I am not going to say 4E is better than 3E, but it's better at the style of play that *I* prefer. I want something that plays fairly quick, has easy to resolve actions, and is open-ended enough that I don't feel like I have to be hindered by mechanics in order to provide the narrative that I want. I *prefer* rules light. In fact, if I wasn't playing D&D 4E, I'd probably play something like Spirit of the Century instead.

It doesn't have to be better at suiting your needs. If it doesn't suit your needs, then modify it or go back to 3E, but I'm tired of the comments about how stupid the game is or how we are just deceiving ourselves into liking it and buying into WotC propaganda, and the comments of *some* that fall into gray areas of trolling. That's not reasonable discussion or even critiquing, that's just being an anti-fanboy.

[Obryn]

I don't know that that's the issue. I think there's a legitimate concern that long-term attrition isn't supported very well under the 4e RAW. And folks who value that sort of game experience are left hanging.

Personally, I can't remember too many games where long-term attrition has been a major concern, but just because I don't value it doesn't mean nobody else should. IMO, it hasn't been an issue since 2000 or 2001, when the first 3e cleric made a Wand of CLW for 375 gp.

It's all about the experiences a game provides, and different people want different experiences. RPG rules are just a structure for providing gameplay experiences.

-O

[N0Man]

Originally Posted by Obryn

I don't know that that's the issue. I think there's a legitimate concern that long-term attrition isn't supported very well under the 4e RAW. And folks who value that sort of game experience are left hanging.

Personally, I can't remember too many games where long-term attrition has been a major concern, but just because I don't value it doesn't mean nobody else should. IMO, it hasn't been an issue since 2000 or 2001, when the first 3e cleric made a Wand of CLW for 375 gp.

It's all about the experiences a game provides, and different people want different experiences. RPG rules are just a structure for providing gameplay experiences.

-O

I had intended to Preview my last post rather than Post it when I did... and Enworld is being so painfully slow that I didn't go back to edit it. I'm sure I came off as ranting somewhat, but it wasn't directed towards everyone here who isn't satisfied with 4E's healing mechanic... just a few that are snide about it try to paint this as being a "4E" issue.

I believe I said earlier that I can sympathize with the desire to have more longterm conditions, but the thing is, the foundations for a workable long-term injury system do exist in 4E, in the form of the disease track system.

I honestly think that it would be trivial work to adapt this system to be used for wounds. The core of this is already in place, all you need to do is customize it slightly.

Potential conditions that might start the track: Receiving a critical hit. Taking 1/2 your total hit points in a single blow. Failing a single Dying saving throw.

Potential effects from a condition: Penalty to melee attacks. Penalty to Fortitude Defense. Lose a healing surge until you recover.

Would something like that help?

[UngeheuerLich]

Exactly this!

An idea for the wound sytem:
if you knock someone down with a ower like knee breaker, you can chose to break the leg instead of killing the victim...^^

And if you are not sure if the hit hero will survive try describing it as: the blow hit you hard on your shoulder and everything goes black around you...