D&D 4th Edition RulesAsk questions about 4th-Edition rules and the like in here. General discussion about 4E or any other game belongs in General RPG Discussion, above.
Lasting frost has been "Fairly" contraversial since inception, but Im not going to get into that (and please dont anyone else). I was just comparing these two feats. Now, I know one one heroic and one is paragon, but I would like to put that aside as well.
At the end of the day on a comparison basis, Surging flame looks really weak. It adds five IF the target has fire resist, whereas lasting frost just gives 5 cold vulnrability. Meaning one gets 5 situatutionaly (and thats a situation which is detramental, i.e. your probably tempted to use non fire spells instead) whereas lasting frost give 5 always.
That is unless...does imposing vulnrability on a target actually decrease resistance? If I was to think of it naturally, my answer would be "yes", but if I was to analyse it in light of this situation (and do some guesswork at designner intent) my answer would be "no".
Example. Bunch of Frost archons (resist 20 cold) cannot (in my view) be made vulnrable to cold, but can vulnrability decrease the resitance? Im not so sure it works that way. If we were to hit them with something that said "reduces resistance by X" (for instance a frost sorceror) I would agree, but I would imagine that a creature that has frost resistance simply cannot have vuln placed on them.
Does anyone know of a line in a book somewhere (or an official response from WOTC) that clarifies this point?
There is nothing that says you can't be vulnerable and have resistance. They two would basically cancel each other out to a point. I remember WotC tailking about it at some point, but I can't seem to find it.
At the end of the day on a comparison basis, Surging flame looks really weak. It adds five IF the target has fire resist, whereas lasting frost just gives 5 cold vulnrability. Meaning one gets 5 situatutionaly (and thats a situation which is detramental, i.e. your probably tempted to use non fire spells instead) whereas lasting frost give 5 always.
Yup, surging flame sucks, and you'd have to be an idiot to ever use it UNLESS you had a plenitude of attacks that have two elements that include fire (ie fire + frost) AND a way of giving fire resist to your foes that had a minimal opportunity cost.
Basically: either you don't know whether the foes you face will have fire resistance, so the feat isn't worth having, OR you know that your foes will have fire resistance and you're stupid for having fire-dealing powers.
I have read and re-read that. Its weird, how can you apply by vuln and res and NOT have them cancel each other? Now Im just confused!
In practice, they do numerically cancel. A creature with Cold Resist 5 and Cold Vulnerable 5 taking Cold damage will be receiving X + 5 - 5: which works out to X. However, the creature still has both the resistance and the vulnerability even though the numbers cancel out. You don't ignore them both (or just the lesser one while diminishing the larger one) because other things can key off those traits. So someone with Wintertouched could still get combat advantage, etc.
__________________ "I'd like to shake the hand of the genius who invented that - just the hand, after it's been cut off from the now screaming man."
Surging flame is the weaker cousin of the epic feat that drops fire res by 20. Fire resistance is one fo the more common resistances so it helps with that. But otherwise, not a big fan.
7. If a creature has both resistance and vulnerability to a single type of damage, like cold, which one do you apply first?
Both the resistance and the vulnerability are applied and one can not negate the other.
You'd think someone writing a FAQ entry would check for elementary errors, wouldn't you?
It would be fine if they left off the last clause of the last sentence which is just nonsense. Both the resistance and the vulnerability are applied (and thus one can cancel out the other).
__________________ Plane Sailing
(Enworld Admin)
If you need to email me click here
"It makes as much sense as having Batman kill his parents and then go on to fight mutants from another dimension." - Rykion
The point of the last clause it that even if they numerically counteract each other, the creature continues to have both traits. As Victim pointed out, other powers and effects may still trigger off of those effects.
As for Surging flame "sucking", Allow me to disagree - it is the next feat my 4th lvl tiefling wizard plans to pick up (She currently has Implement Expertise (Tome), Arcane Fire, and Wintertouched). She has focused on AoE Fire and Cold powers Armed with her Book of Undeniable Fire +1, Surging Flame will allow her to reduce any creatures Fire Resistance by 10, add another 5 pts of damage, and make it/them vulnerable to Cold - which sets it up for a Cold attack next turn.
Her focus on Fire effects is risky - many creatures resist it. Surging Flame helps her remain effective in the face of such foes. It keeps half of her powers - and her Scorching Burst at-will - from becoming useless against them.
The point of the last clause it that even if they numerically counteract each other, the creature continues to have both traits. As Victim pointed out, other powers and effects may still trigger off of those effects.
As for Surging flame "sucking", Allow me to disagree - it is the next feat my 4th lvl tiefling wizard plans to pick up (She currently has Implement Expertise (Tome), Arcane Fire, and Wintertouched). She has focused on AoE Fire and Cold powers Armed with her Book of Undeniable Fire +1, Surging Flame will allow her to reduce any creatures Fire Resistance by 10, add another 5 pts of damage, and make it/them vulnerable to Cold - which sets it up for a Cold attack next turn.
Her focus on Fire effects is risky - many creatures resist it. Surging Flame helps her remain effective in the face of such foes. It keeps half of her powers - and her Scorching Burst at-will - from becoming useless against them.
Her motto is "MY fire is better . . ."
However, lets say that you come up against something with a fire resist of 10. The tome reduces their resistance to zero, so now they dont have resistance any more! Does Surging Flame now apply?
They still have the trait "Resist Fire", it just happens to have a value of "0". It is the same as with Vulnerable 5, Resist 5 - the damage suffered by the creature does not change, but the creature still has both traits.
Last edited by Thyrwyn; 22nd July 2009 at 11:16 AM..
It would be fine if they left off the last clause of the last sentence which is just nonsense. Both the resistance and the vulnerability are applied (and thus one can cancel out the other).
Well, no, because neither the resistance nor the vulnerability is "canceled".
5-5=0
...but not in this case a more relevant comparison would be...
v(5)-r(5)=0
This doesn't allow you to ignore the fact that the functions v() and r() are still there, fully active. You would see that it's just in this special case the resulting numerical modifier would be zero.
Yup, surging flame sucks, and you'd have to be an idiot to ever use it UNLESS you had a plenitude of attacks that have two elements that include fire (ie fire + frost) AND a way of giving fire resist to your foes that had a minimal opportunity cost.
Basically: either you don't know whether the foes you face will have fire resistance, so the feat isn't worth having, OR you know that your foes will have fire resistance and you're stupid for having fire-dealing powers.
Isn't the point of Surging Flame to make your endless list of fire powers viable when you meet fire resistant foes? If you've got a nice flavor thing going Surging Flame lets you stick to it instead of breaking out some cold powers (and thereby going off theme).
It might also be a nice feat to pick up for a level during the fire themed adventure, then training out of when you move on. In that case the "situation" it applies in might be an entire level's worth of adventuring.
PS
__________________ You can clean up vomit, but data is always messy. - Storm's Law
I don't care if you light his face on fire and put it out with an anvil... - A. Taylor
There are many reasons why resistance and vulnerability don't cancel each others.
1. Resistance is applied first. If the damage is reduced to 0, vulnerable won't do anything.
2. In the case of a power with multiple damage type (e.g. cold and necrotic), the resistance will only be applied if the monster as resistance to BOTH damage type. Thus, an Ice Archon with resist 20 ice and vulnerable 5 ice would take +5 damage from a cold and necrotic attack.
Surging Flame become useful when using power that have both fire and another keyword (cold would be the best for many reasons). Multiple type means his resistance to fire is ignored, but you still get the bonus damage.
Isn't the point of Surging Flame to make your endless list of fire powers viable when you meet fire resistant foes? If you've got a nice flavor thing going Surging Flame lets you stick to it instead of breaking out some cold powers (and thereby going off theme).
It might also be a nice feat to pick up for a level during the fire themed adventure, then training out of when you move on. In that case the "situation" it applies in might be an entire level's worth of adventuring.
PS
The question would have to be asked: if making elementally-themed characters viable regardless of opposition is the target, why is it a fire-specific feat? And why does it increase damage when faced with a resistant foe instead of simply reducing the resistance?
It DOES seem like a good feat to swap in/swap out when you know you'll be facing fire creatures for a level and all your powers are fire. But there are a lot of other more effective ways of coping with that scenario.
I have read and re-read that. Its weird, how can you apply by vuln and res and NOT have them cancel each other? Now Im just confused!
If there's an effect that keys off of resistance or vulnerability, it will still occur, even if the two numerically cancel each other out. For a made up example, an ability that raised a creature's fire resistance by five would still be able to affect the target.
Looking at the MM faq, seems like I was wrong about point 1. Vulnerability and resistance are both applied, basically "cancelling" each other. But, point 2 still apply. A power having two damage type can benefit from vulnerability while "probably" ignoring resistance.
Looking at the MM faq, seems like I was wrong about point 1. Vulnerability and resistance are both applied, basically "cancelling" each other.
Well, yes. But no.
The results of vulnerability and resistance might cancel each other out, but there is a reason the text did not use the phrase "cancel out each other".
In fact, the designer went some way to express that vulnerability and resistance do not negate each other.
In the rest, you're right.
Zapp
---
Number of times in this thread I had to clarify resistances and vulnerabilities does not "cancel" each other: 2 (and counting, I guess)
They still have the trait "Resist Fire", it just happens to have a value of "0". It is the same as with Vulnerable 5, Resist 5 - the damage suffered by the creature does not change, but the creature still has both traits.
It's not clear to me that "resist fire 0" actually has "fire resistance". I'd say that it doesn't; if you manage to reduce an resistance to 0, then it no longer resists that damage type.
__________________
4e balanced random loot system
- Think item wishlists are devilspawn?
- Dislike the impact of a few bad item picks by the DM on the party?
- Or find it ludicrous that PC's constantly just "happen" to find magic items tailored to their needs?
Try: A simpler treasure system for (mostly) random loot.
3.5 death&dying variant
- Tired of players that won't cure their mortally wounded allies 'cause "he's only at -2"?
- Tired of a dying mechanic which uses anachronistic d10's?
- Tired of a dying mechanic which never kicks into action for high level characters, which tend to go from alive and kicking to instant death before anyone can intervene?
- Tired of horribly complex house rules?
Try: Death & Dying - a better (and simple!) system
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
