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One of my players has asked me to clarify my interpretation of the fighter at-will power "Footwork Lure" before he decides whether or not he'll be swapping it into his powers.
The power doesn't have a limitation on the distance slid and doesn't specify how that affects bigger creatures (with multi-square bases).
The description for Sliding mentions the following:
Quote:
Slide: When you slide a creature, there’s no restriction on the direction you can move it.
...
Line of Effect: You must have line of effect to any square you pull, push, or slide a creature into.
Distance in Squares: The power you’re using specifies how many squares you can move a target. You can choose to move the target fewer squares or not to move it at all. You can’t move the target vertically.
Specific Destination: Some powers don’t specify a distance in squares but instead specify a destination, such as “adjacent” (a square adjacent to you).
No Opportunity Attacks: Forced movement does not provoke opportunity attacks or other opportunity actions.
Ignore Difficult Terrain: Forced movement isn’t hindered by difficult terrain.
Not a Move: Forced movement doesn’t count against a target’s ability to move on its turn. A target’s speed is irrelevant to the distance you move it.
Clear Path: Forced movement can’t move a target into a space it couldn’t enter by walking. The target can’t be forced into an obstacle or made to squeeze into a space.
Catching Yourself: If you’re forced over a precipice or a pit, you can try to catch yourself before you fall. See “Falling,” page 284.
Swapping Places: Some powers let you swap places with a target. You slide the target so that its space overlaps your space, and then you shift so your space includes at least one square that the target just left.
Most slides I've seen specify a number of squares of movement, which resolves issues with the placement of a large creatures. However, since Footwork Lure doesn't specify a distance of movement, there is question as to whether the fighter could slide a large creature in so as to place any one the creatures base squares over the target square (at his choosing), as the movement of a slide is determined by the person doing the sliding.
My issue with this is that (in an extreme example), a fighter wielding a poelarm could effectively slide a gargantuan creatures 6 squares (2 for the polearm's reach, and 4 to move the back side of the creature into the target square).
This seems a tad powerful for an at-will attack. It also seems to go against the flavour of the attack, which states:
Quote:
You press the attack, engaging your enemy before falling back and drawing him after you.
If the creatures is drawn after you, why would he completely move through where you were, repositioning himself far more than need be?
I don't have an issue with the concept of the power, I just think it can easily be exploited on larger creatures, as the RAW is quite vague, not making any mention of movement distance nor how to deal with larger creatures.
I don't think you actually can slide large (or larger creatures) in the way the OP describes.
Although the power does not specify a distance, it says "into a square adjacent to you" rather than "any square adjacent to you." I would contend that once you have slid one square of the creature into any square adjacent to you the requirements of the power have been met and you have to stop there.
In other words, I don't think the power lets you keep sliding the creature until you have it positioned "just so."
Now, the problem still arises that the rules don't explicitly state that you must slide the creature in the most direct route possible, but since I'm pretty sure that is RAI and what most DMs would rule, that's probably less of an issue.
Although the power does not specify a distance, it says "into a square adjacent to you" rather than "any square adjacent to you." I would contend that once you have slid one square of the creature into any square adjacent to you the requirements of the power have been met and you have to stop there.
Actually, the wording is "into the space you left" if I'm not mistaken. Not hugely different, but still an important distinction.
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Now, the problem still arises that the rules don't explicitly state that you must slide the creature in the most direct route possible, but since I'm pretty sure that is RAI and what most DMs would rule, that's probably less of an issue.
The problem with that interpretation is it's then essentially a Pull, rather than a Slide, isn't it.
Yeah, "adjacent space" is on Luring Strike (the Swordmage version). For Footwork Lure, the hit text is:
Quote:
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage. You can shift 1 square and slide the target into the space you left.
Increase damage to 2[W] + Strength modifier at 21st level.
I rule that as soon as one square of the creature's space is in the space the pc vacated, the slide ends.
Do you also rule that the movement must be more or less directly into the square?
If not, the player could state that the creatures moves around in such a way that any of it's outside squares could be first to enter the target square.
As far as I could tell, the whole point of the Slide terminology was to make Polearm Gamble an amazing feat, and not so you could slide your target all around the battlefield in a circle before moving them into a space next to you.
On this I'm almost willing to rule that the DM controls the slide once the PC has determined the target square.
I think you're right that it should be by the most direct/shortest route to the target square. You might also rule that the monster is allowed to move through the square of the PC using footwork lure for purposes of this slide if the target is larger than the PC, but that it must end in unoccupied squares.
I think a pretty fair ruling would be to say the square that ends up in the spot vacated by the player has to be the square that was attacked. If they can attack a back square somehow (enhanced reach boosts or something) then they can slide their large for all over the place. Otherwise it doesn't seem likely to happen.
Do you also rule that the movement must be more or less directly into the square?
If not, the player could state that the creatures moves around in such a way that any of it's outside squares could be first to enter the target square.
If you allowed that, why couldn't you slide the creature in an 18-square-long loop?
I think it pretty much has to be the shortest route, or it gets silly.
not only does it get silly, it gets unbalanced. just slide the enemy through the wall of fire 79 times(for 247d6+456 fire damage). if you allow complete control over the slide, you essentially create an infinite damage combo, since the distance of the slide is undetermined. infinite damage is bad.
not only does it get silly, it gets unbalanced. just slide the enemy through the wall of fire 79 times(for 247d6+456 fire damage). if you allow complete control over the slide, you essentially create an infinite damage combo, since the distance of the slide is undetermined. infinite damage is bad.
And that would be why I rule that forced movement that doesn't specify a number of squares uses the least amount of squares possible and is direct.
If you try to polearm Footwork Lure a huge monster between two trees, it won't go all the way around the forest to end up next to you - the forced movement simply won't work. Then it's up to the Fighter in question to not abuse the power. It's meant as a positioning tool, not as a mean to create absurd situations or marathon-like slides.
If an ability allows you to slide a target an unlimited number of squares to a destination, you must slide the target by the shortest path that allows it to reach the destination, and no square of the slide may move the target's center farther away (by Euclidean distance) from the center of the destination space.
This still lets you slide the target around wall corners, but other than that it's pretty much a pull.
By RAW, you can slide the guy miles away off to yonder mountain and back again, as long as he ends up in the space you left. Use it on your allies to let them scout at near-light-speed .
This is one of those 'use common sense' situations. If the player wants to use the power to slide the fiend through the entire dungeon of traps and hazards, he's breaking the bag-o-rats rule. Technically, it's 'by the rules', but technically is not trumped by common sense. So the DM is well within his rights to go 'No, that's stupid.'
Bag o Rats is the best anti-rules-abuse rule. If it's an abuse, you don't have to allow it.
If an ability allows you to slide a target an unlimited number of squares to a destination, you must slide the target by the shortest path that allows it to reach the destination, and no square of the slide may move the target's center farther away (by Euclidean distance) from the center of the destination space.
This is essentially what my player and I have decided upon.
"The creature should always be slid in the most efficient clear path to get to the fighter's former location, and stop as soon as it fulfills the overlap requirement. The distance of the slide is also capped the creature's best available movement rate."
This allows the fighter to lure a foe around a corner and such, but prevents ridiculous pathing-around-the-map potential, and also prevents the creatures from taking a long route to get to the fighter if impassable terrain is between them.
...
On a side note: did WotC even bother to playtest Martial Power? I know it was the first 4e splat book for players, but there just seems to much broken (or at least especially vague) about it.
This is essentially what my player and I have decided upon.
"The creature should always be slid in the most efficient clear path to get to the fighter's former location, and stop as soon as it fulfills the overlap requirement. The distance of the slide is also capped the creature's best available movement rate."
This allows the fighter to lure a foe around a corner and such, but prevents ridiculous pathing-around-the-map potential, and also prevents the creatures from taking a long route to get to the fighter if impassable terrain is between them.
...
On a side note: did WotC even bother to playtest Martial Power? I know it was the first 4e splat book for players, but there just seems to much broken (or at least especially vague) about it.
I thought of a scenario where IMO the slide should just fail and I think your wording covers the situation. Tell me what you think.
Imagine a fighter with a reach weapon attacking a Large monster between two trees like this:
x = open squares
F = Fighter
T = Tree/blocking terrain
M = Monster
xFx
TxT
xMM
xMM
If the fighter hits with Footwork Lure and steps in between the trees then the monster has to go around the trees to get to F because he can't go through. It would take 7 squares of movement by my count to do that and it seems ridiculous even if the monster has a move or 7 or more.
I don't know if this helps or not, but I tend to picture sliding a large creature as repositioning yourself so that its own body is in the way of it attacking you, so it shifts position slightly to get a better angle to you. There's no need for the monster to have moved against its will or have been forcibly pushed (in terms of the game fiction).
Using this kind of description makes it pretty implausible for a creature to reposition itself in such a way that it falls off a cliff, or something, so it'd probably do something like "it stops short at the edge".
On a side note: did WotC even bother to playtest Martial Power? I know it was the first 4e splat book for players, but there just seems to much broken (or at least especially vague) about it.
The guy that did the fighter seems to have been pretty hopeless.
The guys that did the rogue and the ranger seem to be pretty much spot on, to the point that the ranger beast stuff is more balanced than that in the original book (because it avoids all the stupid double-dipping on damage bonuses that multi-attack powers get).
I'll just chime in and say that the reason I see that the movement in Footwork Lure is a slide instead of a pull is because it allows the following scenario:
Lets imagine that in the following grid, "F" is the Fighter and "M" the monster.
XXXXX
XFMXX
XXXXX
The Fighter uses Footwork Lure, which says he first attacks, and then shifts one square. Lets say he shifts sideways.
XFXXX
XXMXX
XXXXX
Now, the monster is slid into the square the fighter left.
XFXXX
XMXXX
XXXXX
Technically speaking, this would be impossible with a Pull, since the monster would be at the same distance from the Fighter in the starting and stopping squares, so he can't pull him closer to him.
(I am writing this lacking food and sleep, so forgive me if my English is unintellegible)
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