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Does Pure Glow (Morninglord [Paladin] lvl 11) auto-kill all minions in it's aoe?
I've been ruling that way since it does 10 damage to all enemies at the start of their turn, but it is really trivializing all encounters with minions unless I send them out in waves. The Paladin tends to lead off every encounter with it and the area of effect is close burst 5 which can usually hit 80-100% of the room/area. Has anyone else dealt with this power much?
Does Pure Glow (Morninglord [Paladin] lvl 11) auto-kill all minions in it's aoe?
I've been ruling that way since it does 10 damage to all enemies at the start of their turn, but it is really trivializing all encounters with minions unless I send them out in waves. The Paladin tends to lead off every encounter with it and the area of effect is close burst 5 which can usually hit 80-100% of the room/area. Has anyone else dealt with this power much?
~ Ryan
Unless they have resist 10 radiant, then it does kill them. Auto-damage makes minions kind of a joke. It's a fairly common house rule to give them a save vs death in these kind of situations.
They're minions. They're supposed to suck. I generally half the XP value of nearly all the minions I use, and they're still bad.
But yeah, the other thing to do is to have them attack in waves instead of all at once.
__________________ Of course I wanted Jim to find the mallard. Make him feel safe. Did you really think I would put my primary listening device in a wooden mallard? I'm not insane. - Dwight K. Schrute
Let him do it. Then once in a while give them minions with a rogue eidolon, or gargoyle with the demonic acolyte template. Then the minions within 5 of their boss gain resist all 20 or 25 while the boss is using stone form or hallowed stance. It also gives them one or two other resistances when the boss is in normal form. At paragon tier they get resist 10 to two, make one radiant, and while the minions are within 5 of the boss, they get it too.
Designing monsters or encounters specifically to nerf a player's character is bad form. I'm not familiar with the power, but if it's an Encounter power, how about simply having a second wave? More fun (hehe) might be to have minions that do something when they die. Like become undead. But only after a few rounds - so clever players can stop it.
There are lots of houserules to 'fix' this. They include:
1> Give minions a bloodied state. If they take damage less than their level, they are bloodied (or dead if already bloodied).
2> When a minion takes less damage than their level, they get a save vs death. If they win it, they are fine.
3> Minions all share a HP pool and damage pool. This HP pool is equal to the sum of all the levels of minions in the encounter. When a minion takes damage, if it exceeds the minions level, the minion dies, and the HP pool loses the minion's HP. If it doesn't exceed the minion's level, add the damage to the damage pool. If the damage pool exceeds the minion's level, take the damage out of the damage pool and kill the minion.
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#1 Adds state to minions.
#2 Is similar to 1, but no state.
Both 1 and 2 make passing the minion's level in damage a discontinuity. This can have in-game artifacts. The discontinuity is less under #2.
#3 makes the collection of minions act like a pseudo-monster. Every fraction of the collective HP causes some minions to drop. It takes some math. There are shortcuts to make the math easier.
For example, a fireball that deals 12 damage to level 15 minions. It hits 4 minions. This does 12*4 = 48 damage -- so 3 minions die. In particular, the last 3 hit. 3 damage remains in the minion damage pool.
Last edited by NotAYakk; 25th July 2009 at 01:37 AM..
There are lots of houserules to 'fix' this. They include:
1> Give minions a bloodied state. If they take damage less than their level, they are bloodied (or dead if already bloodied).
This is a cool and neat idea, but I would also discuss it with players before implementation. Players may have made choices specifically based on minion removal and be a bit discouraged when you change the rules.
I'm thinking of two of my players, one of whom picked Stormwarden, not for the general awesomeness, but partially because he kept having trouble hitting some Vampire Minions, and realized he could just "clear them out" with the automatic damage. The other, the rogue, picked Shadow Assassin with particular attention to the DEX damage she can do whenever someone misses her with a melee attack (and plans on giving minions tons of opportunity attacks).
This house rule isn't bad, at all, but I would also consider letting players retrain for free if tactical decisions they made under earlier rules suddenly aren't effective.
My suggestion for a house rule dealing with the fact that minions die too easily to auto-damage.
Minions and auto-damage When PC’s deal “auto-damage” (damage that does not require an attack roll) against a minion, the player has to make a d20 roll, and get a result of 10 or higher, to reduce the minion to 0 HP. Minions still do not take “miss damage”, as usual.
There is one exception to this rule: 1) the rule does not apply to any damage PC’s deal using 1st level at-wills (e.g. Cleave, Cloud of Daggers, Greenflame Blade);
(The at-will exception is a little clunky, but one of the biggest problems with minions at high levels is the sheer number of auto-damage abilities that render them trivial to defeat. This helps to fix that problem in a way that’s easy to run. I think having the players roll to kill the minions is going to be more fun than having the minions save to avoid death and it keeps the odds somewhat more in the players' favor)
Last edited by Elric; 29th July 2009 at 09:25 AM..
I just send Minions out in waves. Any time a situation calls for minions, I send them out in either 1 or 2 waves. Trust me, I have a Radiant Servant cleric in my party. Encounter power Solar Wrath. Burst 8, her Wisdom vs Will. Hits everything.
Sending them out in waves only works a few times. After that my cleric learned to just hold on for a little bit. She now reserves it until a few rounds in to make sure she's getting everyone... by that time a lot of the minions are already gone but I've gotten to use them as well.
My suggestion for a house rule dealing with the fact that minions die too easily to auto-damage.
Auto damage or actually any that doesn't target them specificially (including attacks that damage on a miss)... bloodies my minions... if its done to a group.... half will be bloodied.. one quarter fine and on quarter are completely out of the fight (dms perogative on which or I roll a 4 sider). Any damage against a bloodied minion defeats them.
Yup haul out your intimidation skill if you like - this is really what its for!
I think it makes them more fun... pcs who have allied bloodied minions on there side are free to heal them ... or wander around blessing them with the unicorn force if they like. (kind of my name for the surge-less healing... its wild and untamed). A downed minion who was affected by a psychic attack I might have run in to the night never be seen again or show up later as a crazyman.
But most attacks that target a minion... are just a great excuse to describe worse case scenario results for the attack... the player can have the fun against the bad guy minions... and I can show off the monsters horrible attacks on the "red shirts"... I mean minions.
Last edited by Garthanos; 9th August 2009 at 02:09 AM..
Oh and in the story of my game world.. people quit using the unicorn force in war time because it had a tendency towards healing anyone not just there allies ... it was fundamentally hard to control.
My players might get annoyed if the healing spirit... stopped staying under control but there is enough background for it they might like it ;-)
Last edited by Garthanos; 9th August 2009 at 03:14 AM..
Run better minions. Monster Manual 2 has a few that address the problems of when they die en-masse, when your campaign is at levels where they die en-masse.
Of course, you shouldn't be using minions en-masse at paragon level if your players drop them so easily. That's challenging your players, and is according to the DMG.
People who think DMs shouldn't cater their adventures or encounters to the party need to read more 'How to DM' sections of the RPGs. You know, the parts you usually skip. It's good form.
Does Pure Glow (Morninglord [Paladin] lvl 11) auto-kill all minions in it's aoe?
I've been ruling that way since it does 10 damage to all enemies at the start of their turn, but it is really trivializing all encounters with minions unless I send them out in waves. The Paladin tends to lead off every encounter with it and the area of effect is close burst 5 which can usually hit 80-100% of the room/area. Has anyone else dealt with this power much?
~ Ryan
Lots of things kill minions by the score and it stats pretty early, it's trivial to get a Burst 2 encounter power that autokill minions at level 1.
I pretty much stop using minions except as filler (to get the last few xp of an encounter) by 7-8th level, there are just too many ways to auto kill every minion on the table. I do throw in the occasional minion heavy encounter, partly to let the players feel all heroic and partly to give some glory to the wizard. After all, the guy playing the wizard is investing his play in killing tons of minions, it's only fair that he gets the occasional payoff.
minions are not a threat in MOST groups...
well. i don't see them as a problem. usually only 1 action from a good controller or cleric or whoever have nice area dmg and they are out.
minions are minions for a reason, they are there to take an attack that there master does have to they are supposed to die. they dont need extra hp or conditions if you are that worried about them, dont use them. the minion is there to die and maybe get a shot if they can if not they usually protect a non minion from taking a hit or too or at least lock the pc's up for a round.
I hate minions, the suspension of disbelief that adding a big number of enemies that die in one hit makes whne the other enemies tend to have lots of HP, is just too much to be ignored. I think minions are a metagamy mechanic.
But i do try to use them, my house rule is that minions have 1/4 the hp of the base creature (or 1/4 the hp they would have if they werent minions), for their damage i roll the damage of the base creature (or what they should be doing) and divide it by half. Also, i tend to prefer making minions out of enemies that have lots of nasty effects or nasty attacks such as ghouls, those jumping spiders, etc...
Usually my players are so good at killing things that i have to come up with nasty monster combinations to keep them challenged without giving them too much XP
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