Hybrid Pally - Ranger or Just straladin?

[doggywoggy]

Hello forum! Well well, it's been a while. I wanted to ask this of you, specifically what you thought of the relative advantages / tradeoffs of switching/retraining/rerolling my character to a Hybrid Paladin/melee TWF Ranger from a Str Paladin, now that Divine Power is out.

Specifically, does it make sense to share 1/2 the powers from Ranger and 1/2 from Str-aladin? Is it really that sub-optimal to hybrid, or are there some definite advantages/combos that are worthwhile for a 4-5 person party to have additional striker-like features over an Ardent Paladin.

Assumptions :

1) Str-based paladin build considering re-training into a Pally - Ranger hybrid, whether it's worth it

2) Using only Paladin - Ranger friendly races, such as Longtooth Shifter or Dragonborn (my current race)

3) Having Twin Strike is a "must-have" at lvl 1 for a melee striker, but is not worth PMC-ing for, given the tradeoff of prestige classes. Correct?

4) Want to be both good at durability (i.e. AC) + marking to fill the defender role, and good a killing stuff reliably (which Paladins aren't, really). The new level 1 4W + Str Paladin powers from DP look good, until you compare them with Ranger 2x (2W + Str) double attack encounters. Picking and choosing between them...are you much, much more likely to pick a ranger power than a paladin one, at all levels and even for Utility powers? I'm not so sure any more...some of the new DP powers seem quite good. But nothing like Rrot so far. (AFAIK)

5) You are in a striker-heavy party already, with no other defenders. (e.g. in my case, 2 rogues, 1 warlock, a warlord currently on vacation, and myself, a str-aladin that hasn't yet picked anything from DP)

There are some specific questions I have for this forum, if you would indulge me (or by all means, pose your own):

1) Does anyone but me like the flavour of Paladin + Ranger? But worry it's not worth the effort to build a hybrid striker-defender or will it make the party worse off than straight paladin+defender? What was your final tally?

2) Does anyone else think that the DP feats are cool yet still wouldn't take them over staples such as Armor proficiencies or Weapon Focus/Expertise/whatever core feats already exist? So far, for me there are only 1 or 2 serious considerations, but nothing really jumps out at me as being really juicy and a must-have from DP

3) Now to the crux of it : How much less DPR for an optimized Ardent Paladin vs an optimized Twin-striking melee Ranger vs a hybrid? Is a hybrid close to 1/2 way between striker and defender, or is "the whole less than the sum of it's parts" so to speak?

4) Is Lay on Hands, even for a Str-aladin, less useful than Ardent Vow? I have a hard time believing it. Having extra emergency healing saved our butts big time, several times recently. Finishing the enemies off 1-2 rounds quicker wouldn't always have helped, whereas that extra surge here and there really kept it from going very, very badly for us all.

5) The ultimate trade-off going hybrid : Losing LoH to gain Twin-Strike via Hybrid Talent. Assuming I will be getting scale or plate eventually thru normal feats

I really like both classes now, but I worry that my party wouldn't agree. Given the "defender" would now as a hybrid defender-striker have to juggle both responsibilities. Extra marking is no longer an issue, with Divine Censure. In the end, the group as a whole is what does damage, and I worry about less survivability by being a hybrid and losing on class features such as LoH. NB : I would be retraining shortly, but want to be absolutely sure I am making a sound decision.

Any thoughts?

[Herschel]

Originally Posted by doggywoggy

5) You are in a striker-heavy party already, with no other defenders. (e.g. in my case, 2 rogues, 1 warlock, a warlord currently on vacation, and myself, a str-aladin that hasn't yet picked anything from DP)

There are some specific questions I have for this forum, if you would indulge me (or by all means, pose your own):

1) Does anyone but me like the flavour of Paladin + Ranger? But worry it's not worth the effort to build a hybrid striker-defender or will it make the party worse off than straight paladin+defender? What was your final tally?

2) Does anyone else think that the DP feats are cool yet still wouldn't take them over staples such as Armor proficiencies or Weapon Focus/Expertise/whatever core feats already exist? So far, for me there are only 1 or 2 serious considerations, but nothing really jumps out at me as being really juicy and a must-have from DP

3) Now to the crux of it : How much less DPR for an optimized Ardent Paladin vs an optimized Twin-striking melee Ranger vs a hybrid? Is a hybrid close to 1/2 way between striker and defender, or is "the whole less than the sum of it's parts" so to speak?

4) Is Lay on Hands, even for a Str-aladin, less useful than Ardent Vow? I have a hard time believing it. Having extra emergency healing saved our butts big time, several times recently. Finishing the enemies off 1-2 rounds quicker wouldn't always have helped, whereas that extra surge here and there really kept it from going very, very badly for us all.

5) The ultimate trade-off going hybrid : Losing LoH to gain Twin-Strike via Hybrid Talent. Assuming I will be getting scale or plate eventually thru normal feats

Any thoughts?

First off, your party composition is a problem. A BIG one unless the DM goes very carefully. You're striker-heavy and don't appear to be very versatile at all. With three strikers already, there's no way in heck you should hybrid as a fourth. Damage is no longer king in 4E. Stop thinking 3E/video games. The three strikers you have aren't all that durable and (especially with the Warlord on holiday) your front line would be extremely soft. Defenders and leaders are the heart of good parties, not strikers.

Paladin/Ranger is not a combo that would appear to be a good fit at all. You'd be better off mimicing the flavor with a Fighter/Cleric if you want to hybrid. That would give you a heal and some radiant and ranged powers and the Wisdom primary for the Cleric is the secondary for the fighter.

Optimally, one of the rogues would play something else and you could stay a straight Paladin if you like the class that much. Again, forget the "how much damage can I do" thoughts, it's already covered. The party's extremely weak in other areas. If you hybrid and all else stays the same, you really weaken the front line. Unless your DM expressly build encounters not to gank you, it could mean big trouble.

[doggywoggy]

Thanks for your thoughts! something to think about.

What we need are more consistent players to fill the party gaps. One of the rogues rarely shows up these days for personal reasons, though we NPC him for continuity. The warlord is coming back next week I think. He is sorely missed. He's quite the tactician too, as a player.

I think I'll wait off on thinking about hybriding if / when we replace the missing slots in the party, good plan. Mostly I like it for flavor reasons. A divine retributor/hunter who both upholds the causes of the weak and who enforces their grievances.

With DP, there is plenty of use for Wis now for paladins other than LoH, and I could (probably will too), take a cleric multiclass feat to get some ranged healing if I decide to lose LoH. There are some new healing powers for paladins too in DP, if I'm not mistaken.

[DracoSuave]

TWF doesn't have much synergy with a Paladin, for one thing.

If you want a damage-dealer, maybe a longtooth shifter, Power of Strength for some good damage on a two-handed beater of a weapon and holy strike.

[Votan]

Originally Posted by doggywoggy

I think I'll wait off on thinking about hybriding if / when we replace the missing slots in the party, good plan. Mostly I like it for flavor reasons. A divine retributor/hunter who both upholds the causes of the weak and who enforces their grievances.

I'm still working with a smaller subset of the books (PHB, PHB2) but why not just take a Ranger multi-class feat (the first one)? It gives the flavor of the blend while costing rather little?

Or am I missing somehting obvious?

[DracoSuave]

Actually, if you must, go Tactical Warlord. Synergizes well with the party, covers their weaknesses, and doesn't slouch on damage either.

[Nifft]

Originally Posted by doggywoggy

3) Having Twin Strike is a "must-have" at lvl 1 for a melee striker (...). Correct?

I'm going to take issue with this assumption. Rogues and Barbarians do just fine without it.

It's a great power, but it's hardly necessary for every class.

Cheers, -- N

[Shin Okada]

Unless you have completely damped out CHA, I suggest you to take Mighty Challenge feat in complete divine. A first level Dragonborn Paladin with Str 18 and Cha 18, for example, can inflict 11 radiant damage with Divine Challenge.

You are in a striker-heavy party. When a party have some defender and strikers, it is often a good idea for strikers to intentionally provoke an OA from a foe which the party defender is marking. It will increase damage output of the entire party.

[FrozenChrono]

Have you considered simply not taking the two weapon fighting option?

You could choose Lay on Hands as your hybrid talent, then pick up a nice bastard sword main and a cutting wheel or a drow longknife in your off hand. You could take advantage of the light blade by MCing rogue, or you could MC fighter and get a free attack every encounter when an opponent near you shifts. Then you could take some power swap feats to take advantage of the two different weapons thing.

You could even go double weapon and have your party flavor it as two separate weapons.

You'd still get twin strike and the ranger quarry damage, plus a bunch of your powers will only use your main hand anyway.