Adent Champion. Rules lawyers required

[Eldorian]

Originally Posted by N8Ball

How can that be? Precision was put out MORE THAN A YEAR before Holy Ardor. At best, precision mentions that there may be some exceptions to the normal critical hit criteria but doesn't refer to any of them specifically and it certainly didn't refer to any that didn't exist yet.

If anything, Holy Ardor refers to precision because it talks about critical hits and therefore modifies at least some of the rules therein, and we already agree on that because we know it modifies at least SOME of the critical hit criteria, we're just arguing about how much was modified.

Anyway, it offered no new restrictions or guidance on crits. The second part in parentheses simply reminded us of another rule, "Automatic Hit" that is not in the crit section, but in "Attack Results" on 276 (call that rule C in relation to my formula above).

Precision: Some class features and powers allow you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers other than 20 (only a natural 20 is an automatic hit).


Holy Ardor is a paragon path feature that allows you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers (pairs) other than a 20. It does not refer by name, it refers by category. Features that allow crits.

It's not about which one applies least often. It's not about which one came out most recently. It's about which one, in its language, refers to the other.

For example, the feat Spear Push (PHB) refers to charge attacks made by the paragon path Warforged Juggernaut. Despite the fact that spear push came out first, a year before the other, it refers to the paragon path feature that lets you push people when you hit with a charge attack.

[CableRouter]

Originally Posted by BobTheNob

The thing with this is I am interested in rolling up an avenger, but looking at all of the boards on how to compose an avenger, NONE of them recommend this PP for this reason. They all to cheeseball things like multiclass cleric/radiant servent, multiclass warlock/Student of Caiphon, multiclass rogue/daggermaster.

Bah, make your own cheese!

Avenger/Pit Fighter/Eternal Defender
At Level 24 your melee reach increases to 2 with a Large Fullblade, for extra fun, make it Vorpal and combine with Gauntlets of Destruction and a War Ring. 2d6 Brutal 1 per W, if you roll a 6, keep it and roll another d6!

End game at-wills are 4d6 + 31 damage. With Heavy Blade Mastery crits due to Oath of Emnity are plentiful for 55 +8d6 (2d6 War Ring, 6d6 High Crit) + 6d12 damage (Vorpal). Those extra dice are affected by the gauntlet and vorpal properties, average of 155 damage for critical hit with 2[W] at-will.

[Mahali]

Originally Posted by Bryan Reese

A Daggermaster scores a crit 15% of the time, rather than your standard 5%, giving it a 10% increase.

300% percent increase. 5% x 300% = 15%

[pascalnz]

for more cheese use a vorpal executioners axe, 2d6 brutal 2

[Cailte]

I like this summary:

Originally Posted by N8Ball

IF (A and B) then X.
A = rolling a 20.
B = having a attack roll high enough to hit the defense
X = score a critical hit.

Becaue Holy Ardour makes it read:
IF (A and B) then X.
A = rolling a 20 or the same result on both Oath of Enmity dice.
B = having a attack roll high enough to hit the defense
X = score a critical hit.

Nothing in the text of the power says anything about scoring an automatic hit.

Yet people keep trying to say that the power does include text that makes it an automatic hit, despite the clear lack of such text from the power.

[N8Ball]

Originally Posted by Cailte

Becaue Holy Ardour makes it read:
IF (A and B) then X.
A = rolling a 20 or the same result on both Oath of Enmity dice.
B = having a attack roll high enough to hit the defense
X = score a critical hit.

No, that's not exactly right. The original equasion is the form of the PHB wording; Holy Ardor has significant differences.

Let's keep A as "roll a 20". You could think of the mastery feats changing this to "roll a 19 or 20".

Holy Ardor reads likes this if you wanted to put it in logical form.

IF (D and not E) then X

D = Roll doubles on Oath of Enminty dice
E = Roll double ones.

This feature creates a new avenue for achieving X. You still have the original way (A and B) to reach X. The old rules are not replaced, you're just going around them.

The counter argument by DS and others is that the requirements A and B (from PHB and the original equasion) are part of X. Hence their oxymoronic interpretation that a critical hit is not necessarily a hit.

Note- "oxymoronic" is not meant to be inflamatory in any way, I'm just pointing out that it is an apparent contradition.

[DracoSuave]

Originally Posted by N8Ball

No, that's not exactly right. The original equasion is the form of the PHB wording; Holy Ardor has significant differences.

Let's keep A as "roll a 20". You could think of the mastery feats changing this to "roll a 19 or 20".

Holy Ardor reads likes this if you wanted to put it in logical form.

IF (D and not E) then X

D = Roll doubles on Oath of Enminty dice
E = Roll double ones.

And Precision tosses in the extra logical step that makes it D and not E and F. You keep ignoring the fact that Precision exists.

This feature creates a new avenue for achieving X. You still have the original way (A and B) to reach X. The old rules are not replaced, you're just going around them.

You actually have yet to point out -exactly- how this gets around precision. Precision describes Holy Ardor. Holy Ardor is an ability that allows critical hits on other than a 20. Precision CALLS THAT GUY OUT. So how does Holy Ardor dodge it? You keep saying it does. But you do not actually say -how-. And the text you note, is the text that describes the ability as one that Precision affects.

The counter argument by DS and others is that the requirements A and B (from PHB and the original equasion) are part of X. Hence their oxymoronic interpretation that a critical hit is not necessarily a hit.

We know it is not necessarily a hit. It's not oxymoronic, it's hardcoded into the ruleset. This is how the game's been since the beginning. How does Holy Ardor change this?

And -please- do not say 'the word 'can' is absent.' It's already been proven in multiple ways and fashions that the word 'can' is not necessary for rules to work. We -know- this cannot be the case, because the rules -work- without it for -every other ability and case in the game-. Critcal hits ain't special in that regard.

[Flipguarder]

Originally Posted by N8Ball

Hence their oxymoronic interpretation that a critical hit is not necessarily a hit.

I don't see it as oxymoronic, I see it as what the rule says:

Precision: Some class features and powers allow
you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers
other than 20 (only a natural 20 is an automatic hit).

[jeffhartsell]

A critical hit <> hit per the precision rules. It is interesting to read the back and forth debate about the Ardent Champion feature allowing you to hit + crit even though you rolled too low to normally hit. All the PP feature allows for is a critical hit, which is not inclusive of a hit.

Use the logic circles from 3rd grade... (critical ((critical hit)) hit). You can have a critical that is not a hit and hit that is not a critical. When they intersect you have a critical hit.

[Artoomis]

Here's the rules on a Critical Hit as presented in the Rules Compendium:

Originally Posted by Critical

Natural 20: If you roll a 20 on the die when making an attack roll, you score a critical hit if your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target’s defense. If your attack roll is too low to score a critical hit, you still hit automatically.

Precision: Some class features and powers allow you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers other than 20 (only a natural 20 is an automatic hit).

Maximum Damage: Rather than roll damage, determine the maximum damage you can roll with your attack. This is your critical damage. (Attacks that don’t deal damage still don’t deal damage on a critical hit.)

Extra Damage: Magic weapons and implements, as well as high crit weapons, can increase the damage you deal when you score a critical hit. If this extra damage is a die roll, it’s not automatically maximum damage; you add the result of the roll.

Note that Precision is given in the context of of rolling a single number on a attack die, and the whole set of rules is presented somewhat differently here.

The situation here is an entirely new one - rolling the same number on the two attack dice granted by an Avenger's Oath of Enmity.

So, is "If you roll a 20 on the die when making an attack roll, you score a critical hit...

So, I have a question, and I think it is truly the key question is:

"If you roll a 20 on the die when making an attack roll, you score a critical hit if your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target’s defense..." applicable when you are using the result of an attack roll but are instead using matching die rolls on the two attacks rolls granted by the oath of enmity class feature?"

In my opinion, the Holy Ardent PP class feature creates an entirely new situation that is not based upon the results of an attack roll, and therefore is entirely independent of the previously-existing rules on how to determine a Critical Hit.

This is because the previous rules where all in the context of making a single attack roll, or, previous to Holy Ardent, the best result of more than one attack roll if a power gave you more than one attack roll. Holy Ardent presents an entirely new situation that is a new context for Critical Hits - that of matching two d20 die rolls.

I am not entirely sure what was intended, but I think that's the way it is written. Mind you, the line about two 1s is some supporting evidence of intent, but... maybe, maybe not.

[N8Ball]

Originally Posted by DracoSuave

And Precision tosses in the extra logical step that makes it D and not E and F. You keep ignoring the fact that Precision exists.

The logical equasion I gave describes the text of Holy Ardor concisely and accurately. It needs no addition.

If you would like to argue that X has logical arguments (F) within it, then that may be consistent with your argument, but X IS the result of meeting Holy Ardor's conditions. Saying you need F before you get to X is not consistent with the arguments in your last post or the rest of this thread.

Originally Posted by DracoSuave

You actually have yet to point out -exactly- how this gets around precision.

I will tell you how it gets around Precision when we settle on what X really is. Perhaps this argument will be more productive if we establish some common foundations of definition.

Originally Posted by Flipguarder

I don't see it as oxymoronic, I see it as what the rule says:

Originally Posted by DracoSuave

We know it is not necessarily a hit. It's not oxymoronic, ...

"oxymoronic" is an adjective that has nothing to do with underlying meaning or truth of the phrase as a whole. It's simply a reference to the fact that the word elements are contradictory. A critical hit that is a miss is an oxymoron, ask Webster.

[DracoSuave]

Originally Posted by Artoomis

In my opinion, the Holy Ardent PP class feature creates an entirely new situation that is not based upon the results of an attack roll, and therefore is entirely independent of the previously-existing rules on how to determine a Critical Hit.

Well, this is easy to resolve. Even tho the trigger isn't based on the specific number rolled, it does still qualify as allowing you to roll a critical hit with numbers other than 20.

If you roll 20 with both dice, it would have been a critical -anyways- (assuming the roll is high enough to hit), so that's hardly under consideration.

What this means that if you have any other pair, you are still rolling a number. It isn't an unknown quantity what you roll, as oath of emnity does have a specific result. Therefore, when the ability of Holy Ardor kicks in, it -only does so- for numbers other than 20.

Which means that the original Precision still describes it.

In before 'But it also triggers on a 20!'--so does any ability that says you 'can crit on an 19 or 20' which Precision applies to.

[Flipguarder]

Originally Posted by N8Ball

"oxymoronic" is an adjective that has nothing to do with underlying meaning or truth of the phrase as a whole. It's simply a reference to the fact that the word elements are contradictory. A critical hit that is a miss is an oxymoron, ask Webster.

Thanks for being reasonable about the discussion...

Anyway, a critical hit that misses is an oxymoron sure. Well guess what, there's an oxymoronic rule in the book. Read precision, read the PHB version, and the rules compendium version. They BOTH CLEARLY create situations in which what would be a critical hit turn out to miss.

For instance, according to precision and the daggermaster PP feature, if you roll an 19 on your attack roll with a +20 to hit against an ancient red dragon, by rules you would critically hit, but you miss.

[Artoomis]

Originally Posted by DracoSuave

...What this means that if you have any other pair, you are still rolling a number....

Well, no - you are rolling a number pair, not a number. An entirely new creation for Holy Ardor.

I can readily agree, though, that it can be thought of either way and that there is no 100% entirely correct reading based upon RAW only.

My opinion is that the preponderance of the evidence suggests that it applies even if the number pair does not have a result that would have been high enough to hit. This is based upon the actual language (which omits any possibility of a "possibility" of a critical hit) as well as the inclusion of the mention of a [air of ones being a miss, which truly only has actual meaning if any pair represents a critical hit as opposed to a possible critical hit.

Still, even accepting all the above, that merely makes it more likely than not that the rule is meant to be an automatic critical hit as opposed to a critical hit only if the number on the underlying number pair would have hit anyway.

My conclusion? Any matching pair of dice, other than a pair of ones, is an automatic cortical hit whether the number on the dice would have hit or not. The case for this, however, is far from overwhelming; it is merely somewhat stronger than the case against.

This is one of those cases where a FAQ entry would be very useful.

[CovertOps]

Originally Posted by Cailte

I like this summary:


Becaue Holy Ardour makes it read:
IF (A and B) then X.
A = rolling a 20 or the same result on both Oath of Enmity dice.
B = having a attack roll high enough to hit the defense
X = score a critical hit.

Nothing in the text of the power says anything about scoring an automatic hit.

Yet people keep trying to say that the power does include text that makes it an automatic hit, despite the clear lack of such text from the power.

Originally Posted by N8Ball

No, that's not exactly right. The original equasion is the form of the PHB wording; Holy Ardor has significant differences.

Let's keep A as "roll a 20". You could think of the mastery feats changing this to "roll a 19 or 20".

Holy Ardor reads likes this if you wanted to put it in logical form.

IF (D and not E) then X

D = Roll doubles on Oath of Enminty dice
E = Roll double ones.

This feature creates a new avenue for achieving X. You still have the original way (A and B) to reach X. The old rules are not replaced, you're just going around them.

The counter argument by DS and others is that the requirements A and B (from PHB and the original equasion) are part of X. Hence their oxymoronic interpretation that a critical hit is not necessarily a hit.

The correct equation would look like this:

A = Rolls a 20
B = Class feature that allows you to roll some other number than a 20 and get a crit
C = A roll high enough to hit the target

if (A or B) AND C

Further modified to the following for Holy Ardor:

D = If you roll doubles when using your OoE class feature

if (A or B or D) AND C

Precision specifically allows ways to get a critical other than rolling a 20, but does not say anything about those rolls being an auto-hit.
Holy Ardor gives a way to get a critical other than rolling a 20, but does not say anything about being auto-hit.
You can keep adding as many cases to the ( or or or or ) part above for as many ways as the designers can think up to grant a crit, but that does not make them an automatic hit unless the power says so.

Originally Posted by Artoomis

The situation here is an entirely new one - rolling the same number on the two attack dice granted by an Avenger's Oath of Enmity.

So, is "If you roll a 20 on the die when making an attack roll, you score a critical hit...

So, I have a question, and I think it is truly the key question is:

"If you roll a 20 on the die when making an attack roll, you score a critical hit if your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target’s defense..." applicable when you are using the result of an attack roll but are instead using matching die rolls on the two attacks rolls granted by the oath of enmity class feature?"

You have to refer back to the base rules for OoE: No books at work so I'm going to have to paraphrase (but if someone has access to compendium feel free to post the exact quote). You are allowed to roll 2 dice (under certain conditions) to hit and "PICK ONE" or "PICK THE HIGHER OF THE TWO" of those results to determine if you hit. Obviously if you roll doubles there is no choice as both rolls are the same. This leaves you with 2 die rolls so you can determine if you have a chance to critical AND it leaves you with a single result with which to evaluate the result of C (a roll high enough to hit). Again this is NOT a new situation as the rules already give you a way to evaluate the result of 2 dice rolls. Also, if this were true think of all the other rules that the two dice rolls would break if your intrepretation was correct.

Continuing to make the same assertion over and over does not make it true. "Critical hit" is not equal to a hit. A crit can be a miss. You can also hit with a 20 and not crit. Nothing in Holy Ardor contradicts with anything in precision. They work together as intended. The fact that you have to parse the phrasing of the power and read something into it that is NOT specifically stated to arrive at your conclusion should be a hint that you are reading it wrong. Does Holy Ardor say that it automatically hits AND crits if you roll doubles? No? Then it doesn't. It's that simple.