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I have a player who's playing a jack-of-all-trades (STR/DEX/WIS) Elven Ranger. He's interested in multiclassing to a leader to gain some of the 3.5 concept of Rangers being able to heal. Thus, he should multiclass to some form of leader. But the character is an avid antitheist in my monotheistic world (not that he doesn't believe in God, but that he doesn't like God or the Church). Solution: multiclass Warlord, right? Almost. His one hangup is that he would also like to gain skill training in Insight.
So, here's my dilemma: do I force my player to take two separate feats for each benefit, or do I handwave the issue and allow this multiclassing to offer skill training in Insight?
The larger question at hand is the potential (or lack thereof) of imbalancing some multiclass options by allowing non-class skill training. Would removing this limit in some way affect the game negatively? I do have my players use their skills on a somewhat regular basis.
Some issues I've considered:
This is a character who is trying to do everything. Given that I'm considering implementing the Expertise fix that allows 3 stats bumped rather than 2, I'm not sure I'm keeping this player's power in check by allowing even more versatility.
Insight, unlike other skills such as Stealth and Perception (which he does have trained), is not one of the more "powerful" skills in 4e.
He could multiclass into something else, even Cleric, although that would require a major shift in the roleplaying of a character whose personality is already taking on a healthy color. Bard might be a good option, and it will be the first I will suggest when I see him next, but the larger issues still stand.
Spending two feats really isn't that bad in the long run if he really wants Insight. After all, being the jack of all trades means he should be the master of none.
STR/DEX/WIS does not lend itself to bard multiclassing. Cleric, warlord, paladin or even shaman would at least use one of his good stats for something. The powers can always be reskinned to something non-Divine (herbalism or just plain magic) - change the names but leave the mechanics intact. Even the Religion skill can be explained as "know your enemy" or as simply a detailed study of Undead, which required learning some superstitious claptrap that he knows, but doesn't put much stock in.
I don't imagine an elf ranger has the charisma to multiclass as bard, especially if he already has a 13 intelligence (sounds like a pretty MAD character if he qualifies for Warlord multiclass too). And without a good charisma the bard healing loses a lot of punch.
Has he used any background options during character creation? If not, you can simply give him a background option that makes Insight a class skill. This way when he levels up, he can retrain one of his class skills, say Athletics to Insight, and with Warlord multiclass pick Athletics up again. No harm done.
If he does already have a different background option, then I would still be inclined to handwave it and give him insight.
Also another thing to consider is that just because you're picking up cleric multi-class, a feat that gives you religion and a daily healing word, doesn't mean you just became a holy man. Rules just tell you the game mechanics, you can refluff it however you want. His dislike of religion could have fueled him to study it more if he has some vendetta against the religion or the church, which would explain the training in religion. His Healing Word could be exactly the kind of trick, calling to nature spirits to do the healing to show those men of faith, that a healing power is not just in the hands of the clerics, a guardian of nature can also wield the same magic.
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Invent an Ur-Priest multiclass feat... does everything a multiclass Cleric feat does, but instead of being faith inspired, he steals the power from your worlds God.
You could implement backgrounds and he could pick one that allows him to train the skill.
You may also want to take a look at skill based powers. They were released on the character builder recently and the heal skill would probably grant him access to some healing powers, then he could multi-class into whatever he wanted.
Atheism is also a "faith", especially in a world where the existence of god(s) can be demonstrated on a daily basis.
To not believe in something is the opposite of believing in something, or the opposite of faith if you will. In our world it's called atheism, in a D&D world it might be called wilful ignorance depending on how active the gods actually are.
To not believe in something is the opposite of believing in something, or the opposite of faith if you will. In our world it's called atheism, in a D&D world it might be called wilful ignorance depending on how active the gods actually are.
I prefer to call it "belief in nothing." No gods. No afterlife. It's a world view, no less than is theism. In this way it can be used as a "faith" in D&D.
I prefer to call it "belief in nothing." No gods. No afterlife. It's a world view, no less than is theism. In this way it can be used as a "faith" in D&D.
Ever hear of Secular Humanism?
Thanks for the interesting side discussion, but you might want to fork the thread before it derails. Notice that I didn't say his character was an atheist, he's an antitheist. Big difference.
Some of the more helpful advice I've seen points to Backgrounds or reskinning, so thanks for that. I think I may consider implementing Backgrounds in particular, since I haven't taken much stock in them so far. It seems this is the perfect solution, which I'm glad to see creeps up every now and then.
Honestly, I think you should say to your player that if he wants to be trained in Insight, he should take the feat. *shrug*
I don't believe that changing the rules just for this guy is justified. If he wants to be jack-of-all-trades then he has to pay the cost for it, in feats, same as anyone else.
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Thanks for the interesting side discussion, but you might want to fork the thread before it derails. Notice that I didn't say his character was an atheist, he's an antitheist. Big difference.
Some of the more helpful advice I've seen points to Backgrounds or reskinning, so thanks for that. I think I may consider implementing Backgrounds in particular, since I haven't taken much stock in them so far. It seems this is the perfect solution, which I'm glad to see creeps up every now and then.
Sorry, didn't mean to side-track the discussion. Just pointing out that there are many ways to skin a cat and that a "Cleric" need not represent a diety, if the DM is amenable. This is especially true in 4e where Clerics are essentially their own power source rather than having spells directly granted by a diety or dieties, as in previous editions.
A Cleric of "The Power of Man" wouldn't be out of place.
He could multiclass into something else, even Cleric, although that would require a major shift in the roleplaying of a character whose personality is already taking on a healthy color.
Hang on, I missed something. Since when does a Cleric need to be flavored as a Cleric? Just have him Multiclass Cleric, but have him call it, well, whatever he wants. Fluff and Crunch sometimes need to go hand in hand, but not in this case.
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Antitheist sounds like a great background option, to which adding Insight as a class skill'd be a good benefit.
Problem solved.
Or he could just take the damn feat.
Also 'Take Cleric Multiclass to get Healing Word' doesn't give you Insight as a class skill. So that's sort of a dead-end anyways.
Of course, if you take a bit of a bite of a bullet in Wisdom, and put it into Charisma, you can go the route of Bardic Dilletente, get your Majestic Word for healing, Insight as a class skill, -and- the fluff ability to use a spell to do it, -and- never involve a diety in the process.
Last edited by DracoSuave; 13th September 2009 at 09:49 AM..
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