D&D 4th Edition RulesAsk questions about 4th-Edition rules and the like in here. General discussion about 4E or any other game belongs in General RPG Discussion, above.
When an aura or ability does "15 Fire and Cold" damage, is that 15 Fire + 15 Cold, or just 15 "Fire and Cold".
If an aura (or power) states 15 fire and cold damage anyone entering the aura (or being affected by the power) takes 15 damage with the key type fire and cold. So one lot of 15 damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomBitonti
If the second, what would Reisist Fire 10 or Resist Cold 10 do? What if you had both?
With the same aura a creature would need resistance to both fire and cold to reduce the damage.
If a character had 10 resist fire - they would still take the full 15 damage
If a character had 10 resist cold - they would still take the full 15 damage
If a character had 10 resist fire and 5 resist cold - they would take 10 damage
If a character had 10 resist fire and 10 resist cold - they would take 5 damage
As i read fire AND cold i thought you would comlain about dealing fire and cold simultaneously. You find the same things on munchkin cards
To your question, its generally good to deal differnt kinds of damage simultaneously, because vulnerabilities are added if you match one of them and it resistances are only subtracted if you have resistances against all damage types.
Related, but slightly off topic - anyone have a link or quote on the ruling that weapons that change an energy descriptor (ex: Flaming weapon) are additive on attacks that have an energy descriptor (ex: Split the Sky)? I could've sworn I read something WotC-ish, in a book or FAQ, to that effect, but can't recall where I heard it...
It being one of the most common ways to get two mingled damage types on an attack, in theory, if I'm not off my rocker on reading that.
Related, but slightly off topic - anyone have a link or quote on the ruling that weapons that change an energy descriptor (ex: Flaming weapon) are additive on attacks that have an energy descriptor (ex: Split the Sky)? I could've sworn I read something WotC-ish, in a book or FAQ, to that effect, but can't recall where I heard it...
Wouldn't that be crazily overpowered?
I mean, if a Flaming weapon replaces the radiant damage of your (weapon) power with Fire, that's how it was originally costed.
If a Flaming weapon turns your radiant powers into Radiant Fire powers, then that will circumvent just about all resistance of any existing or future monster.
I'm just hesitant this would be a good rule, official or no...
Related, but slightly off topic - anyone have a link or quote on the ruling that weapons that change an energy descriptor (ex: Flaming weapon) are additive on attacks that have an energy descriptor (ex: Split the Sky)? I could've sworn I read something WotC-ish, in a book or FAQ, to that effect, but can't recall where I heard it...
I think it's in the PH1 section on magic items or possibly magic weapons (I'm away from the book at the moment). Look for a discussion on keyword inheritance or words to that effect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnZapp
Wouldn't that be crazily overpowered?
I mean, if a Flaming weapon replaces the radiant damage of your (weapon) power with Fire, that's how it was originally costed.
If a Flaming weapon turns your radiant powers into Radiant Fire powers, then that will circumvent just about all resistance of any existing or future monster.
Given that untyped weapon damage circumvents almost all resistances anyway (except Resist all and maybe one or two others), I don't think it's overpowered.
Related, but slightly off topic - anyone have a link or quote on the ruling that weapons that change an energy descriptor (ex: Flaming weapon) are additive on attacks that have an energy descriptor (ex: Split the Sky)? I could've sworn I read something WotC-ish, in a book or FAQ, to that effect, but can't recall where I heard it...
It being one of the most common ways to get two mingled damage types on an attack, in theory, if I'm not off my rocker on reading that.
The only reference that I can think of, that would apply, is the one in the FAQ that indicates critical, enhancement, and property lines apply when using a weapon as an implement.
Since weapons like the Flaming Weapon, Force Weapon, Githyanki Silver Weapon indicate that the damage keyword change is a 'power', that won't apply. Whether that is by design or simply incidental, I don't know. The interesting thing is that since these weapons do additional dice of damage of X type on a critical, you would get the additional damage type keyword on a critical.
If you want to get into additional damage type keywords with a weapon as an implement, then you need something like my preferred one; Weapon of Summer. It does an additional 1D8 fire damage, as a property, which would add the fire keyword to whatever damage type you're doing.
Related, but slightly off topic - anyone have a link or quote on the ruling that weapons that change an energy descriptor (ex: Flaming weapon) are additive on attacks that have an energy descriptor (ex: Split the Sky)? I could've sworn I read something WotC-ish, in a book or FAQ, to that effect, but can't recall where I heard it...
It being one of the most common ways to get two mingled damage types on an attack, in theory, if I'm not off my rocker on reading that.
You might be thinnking of the Keyword Issue mentioned in the FAQ - It says that the attacks effectted by a Flaming Weapon gain the Fire keyword if the power with the Fire keyword is in effect at the same time as the attack power.
Thus if you had a Weapon Implement and used Acid Arrow with a Flaming Weapon using it's At-Will power you would do have an attack with both the Acid and Fire keywords (so it counts as an Acid and a Fire power for feats/effects that effect either).
However this only applies to the keywords. The damage in the above case would be fire damage - All damage dealt by the Flaming Weapon is fire damage when the At-Will power is in effect. This overwrites the basic type of the damage. This is indicated, imo, by the "Another free action returns the damage to normal" thus indicating the 'normal' damage type stopped being true. This would also explain why you would turn off the effect sometimes - as otherwise the damage is always fire and ..... damage which is always better, especially if the ....... was untyped (as untyped damage is never going to be a bad thing - as the only thing that negates it is Resist All, which will negate any typed damage too).
Ah, you are correct. Item 14 in the PHB fact states:
14. When do a Magic Item's keywords apply?
If you use a magic item's power in conjunction with a power granted to you by your race or class, that item's keywords are added to the regular keywords of the power you are using. For example, if you are have a Flaming Weapon, and you use an at-will power to attack an enemy along with the at-will power of the Flaming Weapon, your attack will have the Fire keyword in addition to the normal keywords of your attack. You have to be using the powers of the weapon for those keywords to be added; simply using the magic item does not necessarily mean every keyword attached to a power of that item will be added.
Here's the quote from the PH1, page 226, 3rd paragraph under the "Power" heading:
Quote:
Like racial powers and class powers, magic item powers often have keywords that indicate their damage or effect types. When you use a magic item as part of a racial power or a class power, the keywords of the item's power and the other power all apply. For instance, if a paladin uses a flaming sword to attack with a power that deals radiant damage, the power deals both fire and radiant damage.
The FAQ mentioned above should probably be read in conjunction with this paragraph - it clarifies that you need to be using the flaming sword's at-will power to convert damage to fire in conjunction with a power that deals radiant damage to deal fire and radiant damage; you can't just be wielding the flaming sword.
__________________
Last edited by FireLance; 8th October 2009 at 02:34 PM..
Well, to be fair, that's "ice and fire" from two different sources. I think the mental gymnastics are in relation to having one source deal both, as one might expect the two to mix at/near the source and thereby cancel each other out.
Your example is more a situation where one is giving the glass vulnerability to cold.
In any case, this is all a tangent as this specifically was NOT what the OP's question is about. Additionally, D&D has that big "It's magic" trump card to arguments like the one in my first paragraph, so any benefit in going down this line of discussion are limited.
Last edited by Dr_Ruminahui; 10th October 2009 at 01:06 AM..
Reason: For clarity
If you want to get into additional damage type keywords with a weapon as an implement, then you need something like my preferred one; Weapon of Summer. It does an additional 1D8 fire damage, as a property, which would add the fire keyword to whatever damage type you're doing.
Properties are not powers and don't have keywords. Keyword inheritance is only from the keywords of the powers of said item, not damage types of a property. As an example, the Crusader's weapon doesn't add the Radiant keyword to all powers. Flaming and Frost weapons -do- because it is -not- a property, nor even the damage type. It is simply a power that has that keyword that, when activated, is used with a power you use the item with.. Without that keyword, the power you use that item with would not inherit anything.
Ok, so is there even a general rule that allows you to avoid hiring a rules lawyer each time you want to combine a power's damage type with a weapon's damage type?
Or do you need to keep in mind that for some weaponry, the combination requires you to use that weapon's at-will power each time, preventing you from doing the combination on your biggest dailes (and perhaps more importantly, requires you to find another source for the other damage type you want to combine into the weapon*)?
While for other weapons, you can combine your power with the weapon's damage type freely, essentially to circumvent most known resistances?
Not only does this suck, but it does so badly. (Not only is the rule complex, but it allows easy access to completely rendering resistances utterly irrelevant, so why then bother in the first place having them?)
*) In fact, could somebody please give a quick example where you get to combine to damage types (say cold fire) with one coming out of an at-will from your weapon? I mean, the other source - powers - you can't use, if you're using the weapon's at will...
I am sorry but for some reason I am having a hard time understanding exactly what the problem is here. Please excuse my ignorance but as far as I understand it:
1: A flaming/cold/thunder/lighting etc weapon changes the damage dealt by the weapon to a single specified type.
eg 1: a basic weapon attack with a flaming weapon can be fire damage instead of untyped damage.
eg 2: an attack such as Radiant Smite with a flaming weapon can be fire damage instead of radiant damage.
2: Other weapons/powers add extra damage of a certain type under certain circumstances.
eg 1: Resounding weapon adds +1d6 thunder damage per plus on a critical hit.
eg 2: Holy Avenger adds 1d10 radiant damage to any attack that includes the radiant keyword.
eg 3: Weapon of the Gods (power) adds +1d6 radiant damage to any attack made with the weapon until the end of the encounter.
None of the above examples make an attack deal two combined types of damage. They all either do:- 1: single type damage 2: different amounts of single type damage
The only time when you will get an attack that deals two or more combined types of damage is when an attack or power expressly states it:
eg: Fireswarm (power) deals 4d10+CON fire and poison damage
note: I cannot find the Weapon of Summer, which book is it in?
1: A flaming/cold/thunder/lighting etc weapon changes the damage dealt by the weapon to a single specified type.
(...)
eg 2: an attack such as Radiant Smite with a flaming weapon can be fire damage instead of radiant damage.
No, check Ryujin's post above.
A Radiant Smite with a Flaming Weapon (activated) deals radiant AND fire damage.
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
