D&D 4th Edition RulesAsk questions about 4th-Edition rules and the like in here. General discussion about 4E or any other game belongs in General RPG Discussion, above.
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You can benefit from only one magic item that you wear in your arms slot even if, practically speaking, you can wear bracers and carry a shield at the same time.
Have the rules changed that I am not aware of? If you wield a magic shield, particularly a magic heavy shield, you should not get the benefits of magical bracers. The CB still lets you equip both and benefit from both. I know that you technically can still wear them, but you gotta wonder how many people are getting the benefits of both by accident because the CB lets you have both. It seems like a design flaw.
As a bonus question, if you have a non magical shield and have magical bracers would you let that work together? It seems the intent is to force a player to choose between offence or defence and using a non-magical shield and a magical pair of bracers is like double dipping although allowable by RAW. Is that their intent though?
It's a fault in CB. Report it, using the supplied link. They do actually fix these things, as the recent fix to additional damage from the Weapon of Summer, that I requested, proves.
I'm not so sure its a fault but more of a design issue. I could be wrong. If it is a fault, its a HUGE one.
ummm.... isn't a fault a design issue?
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What I mean is that I think it was intentionally done this way, precisely for the reason that you can use a non magical shield and magical bracers, which I'm not sure is balanced. The way shields are explained are kind of hokey to me.
Edit: The CB essentially treats shields as hand items but they actual fullfill the magic item arm slot (as well as hand...kind of).
...which is why the Character Builder should not be an RPGA rules source.
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...which is why the Character Builder should not be an RPGA rules source.
/Off Topic
Not that the RPGA cares any more. All the new changes to how games are reported and how characters are managed makes the RPGA less stringent than many home games I've been in.
Shields are special/weird because they can be enchanted as an arm slot item OR they can be enchanted as a weapon (in the case of a spiked shield). The only "slots" for non-magical items are "in hand" which is different than hand or arm, and the body slot for armor. In the case of light shield, you can even hold (but not wield) something while holding he shield.
If the shield is enchanted (and not a weapon enchantment on spiked shield) it would not work with other arm slot magic items (bracers being the most common case). The character builder should implement something to resolve this. (Perhaps the enchanted shield put into the off-hand slot would automatically show up in the arm slot. If a different arm slot item is put on, the 'effects' of the shield's enhancement would be supressed.
In the case of non-enchanted shield + non-shield arm slot items ... it isn't much of an issue. It's not just allowable by RAW, it's intended. The reason that you can't have two magic items on the same location isn't just a matter of being unable to wear both simultaneously, but that the magics interfere with each other. The bracer type powers would be the "any armor" type, while the shield prereqs are the ones that only work with a subset of those armors. The bracers enhancements were designed to be used with or without shields (although some obviously wouldn't work with shields because they encourage dual wielding or two handed weapons) but the shield enhancements only come on shields. So having proficiency with a shield is a prerequisite to those enchantments, and to take those, you have the opportunity cost of losing out on dual wielding or two handed weapon wielding.
In general: The shield magic stuff should be "better" as it's restricted while the bracer arm slot items are not. The bracer arm slot items work with normal shields, but enchanted shields are arm slot items for the purpose of "one enchantment per slot, two for rings" rule.
The only "slots" for non-magical items are "in hand" which is different than hand or arm, and the body slot for armor. In the case of light shield, you can even hold (but not wield) something while holding he shield.
So if I follow you, you are saying that non magical shields are hand items, even though they are strapped to your arm and, in the case of light shields, don't require the hand to use it since it can perform other tasks.
Logically, that makes the most sense, but they sure don't make it very clear as per the PHB:
As with armor, you need the proper shield proficiency to use a shield effectively. When you use a shield, you strap it to an arm and sometimes use the hand on that arm—your shield arm and shield hand. Shields grant
a shield bonus that you add to your AC and to your Reflex defense. If you’re not proficient with a shield, you don’t gain the shield bonus to your AC or Reflex defense.
Light Shield: You need to use your shield hand to wield a light shield properly. You can still use that hand to hold another item, to climb, or the like. However, you can’t use your shield hand to make attacks.
Heavy Shield: When you use a heavy shield, you gain a greater bonus to your AC and Reflex defense, but you can’t use your shield hand for any other task.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WalterKovacs
The bracer type powers would be the "any armor" type, while the shield prereqs are the ones that only work with a subset of those armors.
I'm having trouble following what your saying exactly here. Can you clarify this a bit?
Ultimately, the whole shield thing is wierd because one naturally makes the assumption that shields are in your hand but actually fill the arm slot for magic items. Its not an intuitive leap and its further muddied by two different types of shields.
Now that I am home I checked my character builder. I equiped a shield that gave me resist fire 5 and the Iron Armband of Power. The CB only added the IAoP. You still get the bonus to AC, but that is a mundane effect and not affected by the armslot restiction.
Ultimately, the whole shield thing is wierd because one naturally makes the assumption that shields are in your hand but actually fill the arm slot for magic items. Its not an intuitive leap and its further muddied by two different types of shields.
Basically, you "wear" a shield on your arm, but wearing it prevents you from using that hand for wielding a weapon or implement. The way the CB (and 4e in general) works is that you have your main hand and off hand available. If you have a shield, that "fills" one hand. So you can't wield a greatsword with a shield strapped to your arm. Neither can you wield a short sword or a wand in both hands with a shield strapped to your arm.
So, magic or no, a shield will prevent a hand from being used to wield a weapon.
On the other hand, a bracer doesn't prevent a shield from being strapped over it. Instead two "overlapping" magical effects will interfere with each other.
For magic items, there are a number of slots. Arm, hand (gloves), fingers (rings), held objects (weapons/implements), etc. You can hold two different items, you can have a single ring on each hand, one "pair" of hand items, and a "pair" of arm items. While a shield counts as an off handed item when "wielded" as getting the benefit of it prevents you from using that hand to wield another held item. However, they felt the need to prevent using magic shields as an "extra" slot. So, if you have a magic shield, it counts against a magic slot (held item is 'technically' a slot, but in some cases, like a two handed weapon, you are using both hands on the same item) and arm makes the most sense.
My "any armor" comment is basically this:
There are some arm slot items that anyone can use, whether they have no shield, a light shield or a heavy shield. These are basically the bracer types. Other effects only go onto shields (and some only onto some types of shields). These magical effects are more specialized because certain builds (like people that wield two handed weapons or aren't proficient in shield use, etc) can't use.
Now that I am home I checked my character builder. I equiped a shield that gave me resist fire 5 and the Iron Armband of Power. The CB only added the IAoP. You still get the bonus to AC, but that is a mundane effect and not affected by the armslot restiction.
Good to know. I wonder if they fixed that since I last looked at it, which was about a month or two ago. Still, it is highly likely tha someone will make the mistake of activating a power (encounter or daily) from the shield not realizing that they can't. Unless of course they fixed that too!
Basically, you "wear" a shield on your arm, but wearing it prevents you from using that hand for wielding a weapon or implement. The way the CB (and 4e in general) works is that you have your main hand and off hand available. If you have a shield, that "fills" one hand. So you can't wield a greatsword with a shield strapped to your arm. Neither can you wield a short sword or a wand in both hands with a shield strapped to your arm.
So, magic or no, a shield will prevent a hand from being used to wield a weapon.
On the other hand, a bracer doesn't prevent a shield from being strapped over it. Instead two "overlapping" magical effects will interfere with each other.
For magic items, there are a number of slots. Arm, hand (gloves), fingers (rings), held objects (weapons/implements), etc. You can hold two different items, you can have a single ring on each hand, one "pair" of hand items, and a "pair" of arm items. While a shield counts as an off handed item when "wielded" as getting the benefit of it prevents you from using that hand to wield another held item. However, they felt the need to prevent using magic shields as an "extra" slot. So, if you have a magic shield, it counts against a magic slot (held item is 'technically' a slot, but in some cases, like a two handed weapon, you are using both hands on the same item) and arm makes the most sense.
My "any armor" comment is basically this:
There are some arm slot items that anyone can use, whether they have no shield, a light shield or a heavy shield. These are basically the bracer types. Other effects only go onto shields (and some only onto some types of shields). These magical effects are more specialized because certain builds (like people that wield two handed weapons or aren't proficient in shield use, etc) can't use.
OK, that makes sense. RWIW, we've always played this way, but the description of shields was always difficult to sort out in my mind for some reason. We had the item slot figured out but when a player asked about a non magical shield and magical bracers my mind couldn't come to a conclusion on that. Makes sense now.
Still think the CB should be improved upon as its easy to make mistakes with shields...
Good to know. I wonder if they fixed that since I last looked at it, which was about a month or two ago. Still, it is highly likely tha someone will make the mistake of activating a power (encounter or daily) from the shield not realizing that they can't. Unless of course they fixed that too!
It still adds the item power card, but you can hide that. They do need to add an option so that you can change which item you want to be active. Right now if you have a magic shield and an armband only the armband is active.
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