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The abstraction some people dont often get is all those descriptions are perfectly valid representations of either "hitting" (game term) with the bat or "missing" (game term) and still doing damage.
Yeah. A Miss line is just a "clumsy hit" in real world terms - or it can be.
Plus they indicate that damage isn't necessarily purely a physical countdown in DnD anymore, it can represent morale/determination/loyalty/etc as well as physical health now (why things like Invigorating powers can give THP, as they can be looked at as boosting the PCs morale and drive to succeed).
This also gives an answer to "How do you do damage to a person with a baseball bat without hitting him?"
You swung so hard at his friend that you scared the daylights out of him, and he is a few morale points (as represented by his HP total) closer to just calling it quits. (as how cleave damages the adjacent enemy but doesn't hit them).
Yeah. A Miss line is just a "clumsy hit" in real world terms - or it can be.
Plus they indicate that damage isn't necessarily purely a physical countdown in DnD anymore, it can represent morale/determination/loyalty/etc as well as physical health now (why things like Invigorating powers can give THP, as they can be looked at as boosting the PCs morale and drive to succeed).
This also gives an answer to "How do you do damage to a person with a baseball bat without hitting him?"
You swung so hard at his friend that you scared the daylights out of him, and he is a few morale points (as represented by his HP total) closer to just calling it quits. (as how cleave damages the adjacent enemy but doesn't hit them).
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”
You swing for his head, and as he ducks, you knee him in his face.
Didn't hit him with the -bat- now did I?
You got it backwards. She asked for "hurt him with a baseball bat without hitting him".
You gave her "Hurt him by hitting him, but without a baseball bat".
You got it backwards. She asked for "hurt him with a baseball bat without hitting him".
You gave her "Hurt him by hitting him, but without a baseball bat".
The bat swing caused the the knee to even be able to hit... so a better bat swing would better enable a better knee hit.
Same thing exists with sheilds and swords used in tandom...
Attacks with a shield and weapon requirement ... and [W] damage do not necessarily mean the weapon has to be the one really deliverying the pay load...
Visualization is very up to the player.
It could be seen as one of the reasons you can make your finishing attack a knock out.
You could swing the bat and the bad guy drops backward too far momentarily forgetting the wall behind him and bounces off of it... the wall may have hit but the bat was used to achieve it.
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”
The bat swing caused the the knee to even be able to hit... so a better bat swing would better enable a better knee hit.
By that logic, any MBA granted by a Warlord is the Warlord causing damage/reducing enemies to 0 etc, and should trigger relevent effects.
What does the damage is what caused the damage in DnD (see melee damage, ranged damage, etc - the effect, and weapon, directly causing the damage does the damage regardless what enabled the oppertunity).
Hence why I felt his example didn't fit the stated requirements. Especially as the stated requirements were "without hitting him" not even "without hitting him with the baseball bat". The knee in the example can be considered to have 'hit' the person from a flavour stand point (and Flip was talking flavour as she asked how does anyone do damage without hitting someone).
This was why I put forth my example where "damage" was done without any contact at all with the effectted person (morale damage).
By that logic, any MBA granted by a Warlord is the Warlord causing damage/reducing enemies to 0 etc, and should trigger relevent effects.
you are confusing narrative reality with mechanics... and thinking the narrative should enforce the mechanics.. with the above. But I do realize below you were right about it not conforming to "without hitting them at all"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichwee
What does the damage is what caused the damage in DnD
"caused" is the key part of that... phrase ... causation doesnt need to be direct. What caused the damage is the power... ;-) not the object. The bat might enhance the effectiveness of the power... without touching the enemy.. and in fact ... the definition of hit point loss means that much of the time "nothing at all" directly even touched your enemy... not even the element that "mechanically was used in the attack"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichwee
Hence why I felt his example didn't fit the stated requirements. Especially as the stated requirements were "without hitting him" not even "without hitting him with the baseball bat".
Oh I see... without hitting him didnt fit the visualization since this visualization included the knee as pretty much you hitting him...
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”
Oh I see... without hitting him didnt fit the visualization since this visualization included the knee as pretty much you hitting him...
Yes. Flip was argueing that "damaging someone" and "hitting someone" were the same (Note Flip, not me). Thus any damage counted as "hitting". And would be able to trigger effects that can be done on "whenever you hit a target you ....".
Thus she asked "How do you do damage...... without hitting him?". A narrative/flavour question (as per RAW the asnwer is simple, do damage via the Miss line).
I suggested a method to do damage (or actually to reduce HP totals) that even narratively did not involve hitting the person - while I felt the example Draco gave failed to avoid the "hitting him" component in a narrative sense. And instead merely avoided "hitting him with the baseball bat", but as Cleave does bonus damage unrelated to the baseball bat it could well be a knee/kick but that would still, narratively, require hitting the person. And would thus fall into the catergory of arguement Flip was using to say all damage = hitting.
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”
Plus they indicate that damage isn't necessarily purely a physical countdown in DnD anymore, it can represent morale/determination/loyalty/etc as well as physical health now (why things like Invigorating powers can give THP, as they can be looked at as boosting the PCs morale and drive to succeed).
That works for me.
Your hp does indicate your will to fight.
In terms of real world, if you hit any normal human (mob level 1) with a max sword damage you would kill him. But as a tough human fighter with an armor, you can take the same lethal damage tons of time and do not die. Does that mean you are not human?
The best example is inspiring wordyou call out to a wounded ally and offer inspiring word of courage and determination...
In mechanics you heal him "healing surge +d6 and something"
In cinematics you boosts his will to fight
That will that can be taken by a powerful attack that misses you but affects your morale.
These things have always been true in D&D but in 4e the game system seems far more consistant in owning the nature of hitpoints... ie they are treated more as the abstractions they always were difined as being. Luck and Fatigue and Morale... etc.
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”
The +2 would be included, as enhancement to damage is added whenever [W] damage is applied.
The enhancement to damage is added whenever the power has the "Weapon" or "Implement" keywords and has a damage roll. Swordmage powers have implement powers with [W] and weapon powers with d6s or whatever.
__________________ I will build a throne with the skulls of my foemen.
WHOA, that reponse will change the course of everything.
Thanks, may you be rewarded forever for clarifying things for me.
Bear in mind that if you read the thread (it's only 19 pages!), there's also a response from someone on the Design Team declaring that bonuses do apply to secondary damage.
Selective reading is what leads to arguments many times. Most of the time you have to also decide what YOU want to do with the rule. RAW is often ricidulous compared to RAI.
I hadn't read the entire thread either. Just bookmarked it when I saw it months ago and moved on. Having just read it, I'm reminded of a similar instance where one of the developers gave an interpretation on these boards that Rain of Blows fighter power grants two attacks, four with appropriate weapons. Updates (errata) overruled that interpretation for balance.
A member of the design team (who I respect a lot.. mdonais has provided the Wizards boards unique contributions and good feedback including 'Mike's Netizard') said that he'd check with Sam (part of Customer Service) and R&D. Their response according to Mike[#121] "was that they will update the FAQ to answer this more clearly." I believe Mike's next statement was just his personal opinion on how he would handle it in his game when he said, "For the time being I would continue to add your bonuses to secondary damage."
There clearly wasn't complete consensus or I expect the FAQ would have been updated long ago (it's been over six months). I consider Customer Service's ruling [per post 1] to be authoritative until the FAQ is updated or Customer Service rules to the contrary. I also think it is the most balanced interpretation and invalidates a lot of broken combos. If Mike was in a position to make a rules decision for the community he wouldn't have deferred to Sam (from Customer Service) and R&D in the first place. At least for LFR Customer Service responses are binding, so I would adhere to the original feedback unless/until the FAQ is updated or Customer Service rules differently. Anyway, my 2 cp.
You swung so hard at his friend that you scared the daylights out of him, and he is a few morale points (as represented by his HP total) closer to just calling it quits. (as how cleave damages the adjacent enemy but doesn't hit them).
I added Fearsome Stroke to my compilation and credited you ;-)
My house rules allow a large number of reduced to zero states which are dependent on the power (and the skinning of the power) that was used to deliver that final zero or below state- ie mostly up to the imagination.
When you have plenty of minions about these zero hit point - "out of the fight" conditions can occur with considerable regularity.
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”
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