D&D 4th Edition RulesAsk questions about 4th-Edition rules and the like in here. General discussion about 4E or any other game belongs in General RPG Discussion, above.
While I've noticed some minor design "oops"es in Primal Power (like, say, the multiclass feats calling out out specific prerequisites, rather than just calling out prerequisite class features so they can be adapted to future development without eratta, and not giving you subclass keywords when you take a shaman multi, so you have only one epic shaman feat that's even legal), there are -also- some major mistakes or overpowered feats.
Here's what I see. Anyone else (or claims these aren't too strong after all)?
Targeted Assault: This will get taken by every strength-based defender who isn't already cheesing Avenger for an even better effective to-hit bonus. Hello, Warden; want a +2 to hit ALL THE TIME? That you can stack with Expertise? Well, here it is.
Mending Spirit: Don't know if it's overpowered, but a per-encounter heal as a multiclass, rather than a daily (admittedly, as a 2 level deep multi, but Spirit Talker was already quite good). yes, please.
Hide Armor Expertise: Not really a problem, probably, but the Rageblood and Thunderborn barbarians are going to be a -lot- more attractive than Thaneborn for a while. Admittedly, this does put them on the same level as Whirling Barbarians, so maybye they need to print something to help the Thaneborn Barbs catch up?
I'm not sure it's an "oops", but I noticed Barbarians have some powers that deal both main-hand and off-hand weapon damage to one target from a single attack roll... what happens when you crit? Pick one weapon's crit properties? I'm assuming for balance you don't get both. What if you have different crit ranges for each weapon?
That Targeted Assault feat reads differently in the the table. The brief description indicates that it give +2 to attack to creatures marking you, not marked by you. That makes more sense for a Barbarian-requiring feat, too. I think the "marked by" in the main feat text is likely in error.
I'm not sure it's an "oops", but I noticed Barbarians have some powers that deal both main-hand and off-hand weapon damage to one target from a single attack roll... what happens when you crit? Pick one weapon's crit properties? I'm assuming for balance you don't get both.
I think, you might be mistaken about crits. The standard rule for critting: All dice that were not rolled because of the crit itself, are maximized.
That's why Rogues maximize their sneak attack and Warlocks their curses for example. Yes, critting is that good.
Quote:
What if you have different crit ranges for each weapon?
That's actually a good question. It is probably similar to applying the property of a second implement.
He's talking about the critical property of magic weapons. Or high crit weapons.
Would you get the bonus dice from both weapons then?
Bye
Thanee
I think the solution is easy. The primary weapon decides, no stacking. Which weapon do you use for the attack modifiers? That's the one's critical properties that apply. It's not like you stack the enhancement modifiers, right? Warning, this is a trick question. If you answer that you do, you expose yourself as a dirty power gamer and munchkin.
Thoughts of the Arch Chancellor - My weblog on EN World - containing game related material, like: house rules, design theories, reviews, play reports, adventure ideas
Secret Member of <Think we would just hide our secret with a spoiler tag, eh?>
He's talking about the critical property of magic weapons. Or high crit weapons.
Would you get the bonus dice from both weapons then?
Ah, I see. Should be the same as with implements as well. You only get the crit dice from the weapon you use for the attack roll.
Still that kind of power offers nice application. You can use an axe with a big die and a sword with high proficiency and only attack with the high proficiency.
There are a few ways you could interpret Whirling Rend (etc). The attack roll clearly utilizes the main weapon only as that is noted in the Attack: line. When it comes to damage it could be that you use the main weapon's crit for both, the secondary weapon's crit for the secondary damage, or the secondary is simply a damage bonus which doesn't benefit from a crit at all.
Personally I'd favor the second alternative. If you crit with the attack, then the secondary damage is calculated as crit damage with the off-hand weapon.
I'm not sure how Mending Spirit is any better than say if you MCed into Cleric and power swapped in a cleric encounter healing power. There are in any case plenty of ways a character can get encounter healing without even needing to multiclass. Plenty of good items for that.
It's an attack with a single weapon. That weapon crits, you add that (main weapon) critical damage. Incidentally, you maximize that damage bonus of 1W from the offhand too.
While I've noticed some minor design "oops"es in Primal Power (like, say, the multiclass feats calling out out specific prerequisites, rather than just calling out prerequisite class features so they can be adapted to future development without eratta,
I noticed this too when I flipped through the book (I haven't given it a good read yet). At first I thought it was an error, but now I'm thinking it's a deliberate design decision. You don't have to wait until paragon tier to pick up additional aspects of your multi-class. Note that we didn't get any entry-level feats either, suggesting that the ones in PHB2 are it. You get the basic class feature, and then expand with additional feats. I think we're seeing the first steps towards an alternative multiclass feat system.
Yeah, my crit question was about things like bonus dice from magic weapons, "high crit", and various special magic weapon crit properties. I didn't think about the attack roll; I agree with Ridcully, though, that the most straightforward thing is to use the crit properties of whichever weapon you used for the attack roll.
Of course, I suppose this encourages somewhat strange things like a level 13 character using a +4 bastard sword for the main hand weapon and a nonmagical craghammer/waraxe for offhand... without even needing to be proficient in either of the latter (fun fact: Whirling Slayer and the various two-weapon feats never mention proficiency as a requirement). This probably isn't actually too bad a thing; it's a relief from the ranger's usual problem of having to keep up the enhancement bonus on two weapons instead of just one. Still kinda weird, though.
I don't think Mending Spirit is a problem, and I think Thaneborns don't have it too badly since they'll have better NADs. Plus it always looked to me like they don't depend as much as some classes on their secondary stat for effectiveness anyway, so they have an easier time giving up a little Cha for some Dex.
I'd second the above comment about the multiclass feat prereqs, too. It really looks to me like a carefully deliberate return to "feat chains".
And Targeted Assault as a benefit against those marking you makes a lot more sense as a Barbarian feat, so I really hope that's what it's supposed to be.
Last edited by bganon; 22nd October 2009 at 05:30 PM..
Re Barbarian crits: I think it really is as awseome as it looks at first. You attack and determine hit/crit from the main weapon, then do damage as if you hit (or crit) with both weapons simultaneously (and yes, of course you get both sets of properties -- you're doing damage with both weapons!). so yeah, I think if you crit with your rapier +2, both it and your cragmore +2 get to deal both maximized weapon damage and crit damage (your are, after all, adding both +2s into damage, weirdly enough). Jagged main weapons get all kind of awesome, given the "great crit range, mediocre crit property" bit.
I think it not unlikely that at some point, Targetted Assault was "creature marking you" and while it would nerf it, I wouldn't be surprised if errata happened in that direction (also noticed that, after I posted this). It's possible this was an attempt to make the feat more viable, though (which wasn't thought about from the multiclassing perspective).
Mending Spirit: well, for starters, you don't have to trade out a power; multiclass feats that give you a new power are inherently strong. There are items that give you per-encounter healing, but most of them are Paragon levels (and they're probably too strong).
At first I thought it was an error, but now I'm thinking it's a deliberate design decision.
I think it's a deliberate design decision done kinda badly.
The problem is not that it's a 2nd level deep feat, but that it's a 2nd level feat that (unlike most 4e tiered feats) requires a specific other feat, instead of requiring a specific feature or combination of features.
In the second case, it doesn't matter how you got the features; you have the basic set, here, have some more. In the first, you have to buy the chain -- which gives a certain amount of control, but tends to make for "you can't get there from here".
Consider:
2nd Tier Druid [Multiclass Druid]. Prerequisites: Initiate of the Old Faith
vs.
2nd Tier Druid [Multiclass Druid]. Prerequeisites: Druid, Wild Shape
vs.
2nd Tier Druid [Multiclass Druid]. Prerequisites: Wild Shape
In the first case (the one we have), there's an immutable feat chain. If you want to get better Wild Shape speed, you -will- take Initiate, and then you can take the new feat. This gives control.
On the other hand, the 2nd one gives the -same- amount of control (you need to both have Wild Shape and be a druid before you take the feat) but lets them print up new wild shape feats and have them still work.
The third, I'll admit is a risk -- as it's really a 1.5 tier feat (ignoring how dreadfully weak this feat is, due to the inability of multiclass druids to make good use of wild shape. totally ignoring that; I suppose you could be a half elven druid and get an at will attack). If they ever print a non-druid class that has the Wild Shape feature, that class could multiclass into Druid with just this feat. But..that's a -good- thing; it would mean Druid has something to offer a class that has ready-made synergy with Druid, without having to take a redundant feat!
So a low paragon Whirly-Barb with Deadly Axe and two +3 vicious waraxes rolls a crit, and deals max weapon damage plus 10d12 on top of that? That seems a bit much, even for a barbarian.
Actually, do you even add the enhancement damage to both rolls? I didn't originally read it that way, but maybe you're right. Piling two bundles of bonus damage onto a single crit still seems wrong to me, though.
Does feel like an FAQ waiting to happen. That said, I'd be extremely curious to see any rules citation that suggests you get critical dice from the off-hand weapon that you didn't make an attack roll (and critical) with.
Especially in the theory of using a weapon with a greater crit range in the main hand
On the other hand, the 2nd one gives the -same- amount of control (you need to both have Wild Shape and be a druid before you take the feat) but lets them print up new wild shape feats and have them still work.
No it doesn't. You can't take Initiate if you are already a Druid. You can't multiclass into a class you already have. The prerequisite restricts this ONLY to multiclass Druids and not to single class Druids.
Since there is only one multiclass feat for Druids, you need to have it to be a multiclass Druid. I think it works exactly as expected. The only flaw is that they can't print another multiclass Druid feat and use that as an alternate way to get into the class.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mneme
The third, I'll admit is a risk -- as it's really a 1.5 tier feat (ignoring how dreadfully weak this feat is, due to the inability of multiclass druids to make good use of wild shape. totally ignoring that; I suppose you could be a half elven druid and get an at will attack). If they ever print a non-druid class that has the Wild Shape feature, that class could multiclass into Druid with just this feat. But..that's a -good- thing; it would mean Druid has something to offer a class that has ready-made synergy with Druid, without having to take a redundant feat!
I don't know. You could take a bunch of multiclass feats in order to get a couple of encounter powers that have the Beast keyword. Also, since you can use Wildshape at will, it just lets you move 1 square more almost whenever you want.
I also think the chance that another class comes out that allows you to Wild Shape is about as slim as another class coming out that lets you Aegis of Shielding or Oath of Emnity. Which is to say, pretty close to 0. Even if another class came out that allowed you to change into animals, it would likely be named something else.
__________________ Majoru Oakheart
Secret Attorney of the Guidelines for the <Sorry, you didn't make the DC 20 Perception check, and you don't have another minor action to try again. Next time try finding an Elf to stand nearby you.>
No it doesn't. You can't take Initiate if you are already a Druid. You can't multiclass into a class you already have.
Of course not. And no, of course this makes no difference with the rules as they are; the issue is that the "deeper multiclassing" feat isn't current development, but that it's bad design vis-a-vis future development.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majoru Oakheart
I don't know. You could take a bunch of multiclass feats in order to get a couple of encounter powers that have the Beast keyword. Also, since you can use Wildshape at will, it just lets you move 1 square more almost whenever you want.
Sure, but it's still really terrible, since you don't have any basic attacks in Beast form once you've used up the encounter ones. I suppose you could have a druid multi who uses Beast to run away, but remember that without a feat, you can only shift when changing into a human, not the other way around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majoru Oakheart
I also think the chance that another class comes out that allows you to Wild Shape is about as slim as another class coming out that lets you Aegis of Shielding or Oath of Emnity. Which is to say, pretty close to 0. Even if another class came out that allowed you to change into animals, it would likely be named something else.
Maybe, maybe not. Ranger and Warlock both have Prime Shot, for example, so I could totally see Wizards using "Wild Shape" if they made another class with as much emphasis on (similar) shapeshifting as druids have.
Oh, in terms of -pointless- deeper multiclass feats, look at Rampage. A basic attack on a crit...when you do so with a Barbarian attack? As a multiclass barbarian? On your, what, 2 barbarian attacks per encounter (using salve of power to reuse your daily, presumably)? How often do you expect to crit--because even with Close Burst attacks, I predict this giving you -an- extra attack every other session (more at paragon, of course, but still not something you can count on).
Last edited by mneme; 22nd October 2009 at 07:14 PM..
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
