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As I assume it, melee attack are different of close burst 1;
power attack does not work on close burst 1
Power Attack
Prerequisite: Str 15
Benefit: When making a melee attack, you can
take a –2 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits,
you gain a +2 bonus to the damage roll (or a +3 bonus
to the damage roll with a two-handed weapon)...
Bloodclaw weapon does not work on close burst 1
Power (At-Will): Free Action. Use this power before
making a melee attack on your turn. You take damage
up to a maximum of the weapon’s enhancement bonus
(a +3 weapon deals up to 3 damage to its wielder).
IronArmband of power work on close burst 1 because rules are speaking about melee damage
Item Slot: Arms
Property: Gain a +2 item bonus to melee damage rolls.
Iron Armbands of Power give a bonus to melee damage rolls... however if you're using a close burst, you aren't making a melee damage roll. You're making a close burst damage roll.
Iron Armbands of Power give a bonus to melee damage rolls... however if you're using a close burst, you aren't making a melee damage roll. You're making a close burst damage roll.
And what if you have a power that is a close burst using a melee weapon? Arent you dealing melee damage than?
I dont have my books at hand so i could be wrong..
The issue here is that melee damage can be used in the vanacular - i.e I hit with a weapon in melee = melee damage - or in a rules keyword context - i.e. I hit with a Melee power = melee damage.
Using a melee weapon is kinda out as casters can use daggers, swords, etc as implements (but are still using a melee weapon), but can't be considered melee damaging - unless the power indicates that it is Melee attacking.
The consistant way to define things is by the keywords. So if the range of the power = Melee, it is melee damage. Otherwise it is not. Else you get into issues of whether a Ranged power is "ranged damage" if you do it from adjacent to someone. If we take this approach IAoP do not work on Close Burst powers.
And what if you have a power that is a close burst using a melee weapon? Arent you dealing melee damage than?
I dont have my books at hand so i could be wrong..
Its a bit ambiguous because you can't find a precise definition of "melee damage" since it could mean "damage done with a melee weapon" or "damage done with a melee power". General consensus seems to be that the later is the proper interpretation and you only get to add IAoP damage bonus with melee powers. It is an arguable point though.
Another reason to limit melee damage to Melee powers:
Swordmage Lvl 1 At-Will Sword Burst.
Close Burst 1
All Enemies in Burst
1d6 + Int Mod Force Damage
Is this a "conjure force which blasts out at enemies" or "turn your sword to force (lightsaber style) and hit each enemy"?
One would count as 'magic burst damage' and the other as 'melee damage'. So the decision has to be based on something defined by the power, not the fluff/skinning - hence stick to melee damage = damage from Melee powers.
It's not at -all- ambiguous. Descriptors of damage, in -every single case- default to the power used to deal that damage. Melee weapon as a designator has nothing to do with the damage it deals. -Everything- looks at the power.
'But what about weapon damage?'
Look at the power. [W] means weapon damage.
'But what about melee damage?'
Look at the power. Melee damage is damage from a melee power. The keyword 'Weapon' is irrelevant to this. Implement powers that are Melee? Also melee damage.
Look at the power. Melee damage is damage from a melee power. The keyword 'Weapon' is irrelevant to this. Implement powers that are Melee? Also melee damage.
I agree. This one came up briefly in our game but it took about 3 seconds for our entire group to agree that if a power doesn't say melee then it isn't melee damage.
It's the reason my Warden wasn't sure he wanted Hammer Rhythm since he has mostly close burst powers.
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So are you saying that an Ironskin Belt (Gain resist 5 to all weapon damage until the end of your next turn) won't be of any help against Furious Smash, the secondary attack from All Bets Are Off, or the damage on a miss from Hammer Rhythm?
Furious Smash and ABAO both have the [Weapon] keyword. Hammer Rhythm modifies a power that has the [Weapon] keyword, and contains a note that makes an exception to the normal rules for weapon damage.
My understanding is that [W] represents weapon damage dice; damage can still be weapon damage even if no weapon damage dice are used, by virtue of the [Weapon] keyword.
You may or may not be correct. However, the central point still stands: You look at the power, not the weapon, to determine the attack type of damage, and other features. Properties might alter this, but even then, that's nothing to do with the weapon type itself.
Hi. I asked this question of the Wizards help department.
What they had to say is that for items that specify a bonus or power to a "melee attack" or "melee damage", the item power/bonus applies to any power that has the "Weapon" keyword and where the weapon used with the power is categorized as a "Melee weapon".
IAoP work with close burst melee weapon attacks.
Bloodclaw weapons work with close burst melee weapon attacks.
Power Attack works with close burst melee weapon attacks.
Unfortunately it's simply wrong and so we have annother case to add to the long list of erroneous Cust Serv answers.
IAoP and the likes are not supposed to work with close attacks, no matter which kind of weapon or implement you're using. For some months the CB did wrongly add IAoP to close bursts, but this was already early recognized as a bug and just took them a long time to fix (which they finally did with the last update)
Unfortunately it's simply wrong and so we have annother case to add to the long list of erroneous Cust Serv answers.
IAoP and the likes are not supposed to work with close attacks, no matter which kind of weapon or implement you're using. For some months the CB did wrongly add IAoP to close bursts, but this was already early recognized as a bug and just took them a long time to fix (which they finally did with the last update)
Well, its not really unambiguously wrong. IAoP and the like say "melee damage roll" and you can define that as either a melee attack's damage roll or a melee weapon's damage roll. It is more common these days to consider that language to mean melee attack, but you can argue it either way.
Its interesting that CS is no going back to melee weapon's damage roll because they issued a whole bunch of rulings the other way back a year or so ago. I think in general they've been drifting towards more lenient rulings though.
Unfortunately it's simply wrong and so we have annother case to add to the long list of erroneous Cust Serv answers.
IAoP and the likes are not supposed to work with close attacks, no matter which kind of weapon or implement you're using. For some months the CB did wrongly add IAoP to close bursts, but this was already early recognized as a bug and just took them a long time to fix (which they finally did with the last update)
You are wrong about CB not adding IAoP damage to close burst melee attack powers. I just tested and it adds to both of the close burst melee powers my fighter has (sweeping blow & come and get it).
You are wrong about CB not adding IAoP damage to close burst melee attack powers. I just tested and it adds to both of the close burst melee powers my fighter has (sweeping blow & come and get it).
Do you have the latest update installed? Because it does finally no longer add for my swordmage (e.g. whirling threat). In any case, it's definately considered a bug
Edit: I have just build a fighter to check it. IAoP are neither added to sweeping blow nor to come and get it
Last edited by Mirtek; 7th November 2009 at 09:13 PM..
Yes, I have the October update. Build says 208605.
And I don't know what to say to your test. Did you actually equip the armbands on your test character? I tested on my current fighter and also created a new character as well to test powers in several classes.
In every case for the close burst powers for fighter and barbarian that I tested, IAoP applied its bonus. On the other hand, in every case of a close burst power that contained the Arcane keyword, which includes all of the swordmage close burst powers, the item bonus was not applied.
I'm inclined to believe its working as intended, because I think it makes logical sense, but I have posted to that wizard thread you linked, so maybe the devs will reply again.
Yes, I have the October update. Build says 208605.
Your build should be 211014
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunre
On the other hand, in every case of a close burst power that contained the Arcane keyword, which includes all of the swordmage close burst powers, the item bonus was not applied.
You need to look for close burst arcane attacks with the weapon keyword, most close burst arcane attacks have the implement keyword. With the lastest update it should apply to neither of them anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunre
but I have posted to that wizard thread you linked,
Seeing your post I also just tried a barbarian and again no IAoP on his close burst attack
Last edited by Mirtek; 7th November 2009 at 09:53 PM..
I know real world common logic does not really play into this when it comes to RAW, but as a DM and as a player of a fighter I would let a marshal attack using a melee weapon apply Power Attack, even with a close burst. But I don’t think the RAW supports that.
I tested on my current fighter and also created a new character as well to test powers in several classes.
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