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QUick question - Push effects do not to be in line right?
Silly doubt:
My DM said, and I now tend to agree, that a push effect does not need to be "in line", its enough that you move the target "away from you every square".
Lets say you are in the position (4) and your opponent is in position (5). Behind him, position (6) is still safe ground. You are fighting an orc on a narrow bridge (1 square wide), and all the other numbers represent "a fall over the cliff".
If you bull rush the orc, he must be pushed to position (6), or can you push him to (9) or (3) so he can learn how to fly? Assuming the orc fails the save of couse...
Thanks in advance!
PS: Title should have been "Push effects do not HAVE to be in STRAIGHT, line right?". Sorry, I have to slow down...
Last edited by Dr_Sage; 29th October 2009 at 06:25 PM..
Reason: typos
There is nothing that says that pushes have to be in a straight line. In fact you can even do this:
Code:
. . * . * . * . *
A M . * . * . * .
. . . . . . . . .
A = attacker
M = monster
* = push path
assuming you had a push power that moved him that distance. One clever trick with this is to repeatedly push someone into and out of a "damage any enemy that enters it" zone to trigger the damage multiple times.
I agree that push (or pull or slide) does not need to be in a straight line, so the OP's example of pushing the orc off the bridge is perfectly valid, but tend to read the power (especially the fluff) to see if the likes of Alex319's example is possible. We have a Rule Zero in our group - Common Sense Prevails - and I am certain (and I am the DM too) that very few powers would allow for that kind of pushing when read in the light of the fluff.
I agree that push (or pull or slide) does not need to be in a straight line, so the OP's example of pushing the orc off the bridge is perfectly valid, but tend to read the power (especially the fluff) to see if the likes of Alex319's example is possible. We have a Rule Zero in our group - Common Sense Prevails - and I am certain (and I am the DM too) that very few powers would allow for that kind of pushing when read in the light of the fluff.
I have to agree here. Depending on the power being used, I may or may not allow a zig-zag push like that. If it's a Martial power, which is typically explained as something like "your actions force the target to back away from you" or something like that, probably not. All depends on the power description.
__________________ "I am the soul of honor, kindness, mercy, and goodness. Trust me in all things." Corwin to Dara, The Guns of Avalon by Roger Zelazny
I agree that push (or pull or slide) does not need to be in a straight line, so the OP's example of pushing the orc off the bridge is perfectly valid, but tend to read the power (especially the fluff) to see if the likes of Alex319's example is possible. We have a Rule Zero in our group - Common Sense Prevails - and I am certain (and I am the DM too) that very few powers would allow for that kind of pushing when read in the light of the fluff.
Our group uses similar common sense. While a push must be away from you it need not be directly away from you, but it must essentially continue along the same path. You could do the zig-zag attack with a slide, but not a push.
I have to agree here. Depending on the power being used, I may or may not allow a zig-zag push like that. If it's a Martial power, which is typically explained as something like "your actions force the target to back away from you" or something like that, probably not. All depends on the power description.
You can flavour this as "you send your opponent reeling" - your blow made him dizzy and stumbling from side to side.
I have to agree here. Depending on the power being used, I may or may not allow a zig-zag push like that. If it's a Martial power, which is typically explained as something like "your actions force the target to back away from you" or something like that, probably not. All depends on the power description.
Be careful not to nerf an entire power source, for starters (ie Martial vs Others) and recall that the power description is actually a mutable description that may be changed by the PC to anything desired, per the actual rules in the PHB.
So, if the fighter has a power that that is 'Your massive smash sends the target flying backwards' so you'd make it in a straight line, but the rogue's is 'Your crippling attack sends a target staggering wildly away.' so you'd allow the zig zag, the fighter could just say 'Mine is actually a smash that sends a target spinning and reeling away'.
One clever trick with this is to repeatedly push someone into and out of a "damage any enemy that enters it" zone to trigger the damage multiple times.
Honestly, this is the sort of ultra-cheesy thing that I think a DM is more than within their right to not allow (I only allow effects for 'entering or start in a zone' powers once per turn per zone, myself).
However, as said the only rule for pushing is that each square must end farther from you than the last. As long as each square of movement does that it's a legal push, unless something else prevents it.
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Honestly, this is the sort of ultra-cheesy thing that I think a DM is more than within their right to not allow (I only allow effects for 'entering or start in a zone' powers once per turn per zone, myself).
This is also -exactly- the sort of 'ultra-cheesy' thing the rules not only do allow, but the designers have said that Actually, yes, you should be able to do this, we intended for you to be able to do this with forced movement, and there's a reason why forced movement is worded the way it is.
Tho, like anything, if -abused- doesn't always work perfectly.
You got a link to a quote where a designer said 'We intended you to be able to slide someone into the same zone five times then have them get hit by it when they start their turn' or something similar?
As opposed to the absolutely correct link of 'Yes, the rules allow you do...' - though in the wall of fire example it's extremely hard since it takes 3 extra movement, but lots of things don't. I've seen that one.
I think my favorite example for this one is the spell Grease, where you attack someone and if you succeed you knock them prone, and if you miss, you slide them out of the zone, then back into it, and attack them again. Repeat until prone.
I did that with a rope bridge encounter I ran, but all the railings did was allow the party not to fall prone if they made the first save, and get a reroll if they didn't - on the reroll, if succeeded, they did fall prone.
Or in other words, there are no rules as to how railings work, and it is up the DM to determine their effect.
Eh, railings that stop you from going over the edge, but still have you potentially fall prone can make sense.
And railings that can stop someone from falling... _once_... also sound good.
Or railings that remove X amount of forced movement, but more than that and off you go...
That railing vs. forced movement is a good rule of thumb, I had a similar situation during a fight at an inn. Use of forced movement through the balcony railing, I counted the railing as an extra square of movement, so it took 2 squares of slide or push to get someone against the railing over it.
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reading this thread made me think of another situation.
Can push effects pull a flyer down?
Let's say a creature is 3 squares away from a wizard, and 3 square up. Using 4e's diagonal math, that's simply 3 squares away.
The wizard casts a push 3 effect on the creature. For the 1st move, the wizard moves the creature 4 squares away, and 2 squares up. By diagonal math, its 4 squares away....a legal push.
The wizard continues in this manner, not only knocking the flyer farther away, but also dropping it to the ground.
Is this legal?
I think RAW it is, and I think I'm fine with that. 4e's combat is more about getting into the face of your enemy than 3e's was, so if this helps the meleers hit fliers without needing special gear I'm all for it.
RAW it isn't, because forced movement can't move a target vertically _but_ wizards has also stated that's an unintended consequence of a rule designed to stop forced movement from causing falling damage (and proning), so _many_ DMs allow forced movement to work.
Honestly, this is the sort of ultra-cheesy thing that I think a DM is more than within their right to not allow (I only allow effects for 'entering or start in a zone' powers once per turn per zone, myself).
Ultra-cheese or not, it's perfectly legal, but not as effective as people might think.
(had to wade into this one, 'cos it's an extremely common mistake I see on tables)
DMG p61 defines Hindering Terrain as (also) damages creatures that enter it.
The rule that allows a save to prevent falling off a cliff is on DMG p44, and ... it's ... Hindering Terrain.
Just saying, attempting to push foes into a wall of fire gives 'em a save.
Also, note that falling prone is a consequence, and not a cost.
So creatures already prone can attempt more saves.
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