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how to role an npc or monster when marked by a defender?
Hi, I'm new to 4e and a bit confused on how the monsters or NPC should react to defenders marks.
mi question(s) is(are):
when a defender marks its target, the target is aware that is being mark? or is relative to the intelligence of the target? and if is aware of it, that implies that he knows the consequences of ignoring the challenger?
i know the ruling for the divine challenge "...doesn’t rely on the intelligence or language ability of the target. It’s a magical compulsion that affects the creature’s behavior, regardless of the creature’s nature..." but can the creature surpass this "magical compulsion"? guess so, then under what circumstances do any of u think can be ignored?
i understand that, for example, an evil cleric may know that the paladin just place a divine challenge on him or that a martially trained one understand the mark of a fighter, but a dire wolf or a zombie should?
this can be at the master's discretion i guess but i wanted to pick your brain about it, thanks
I tend to play a fighter's combat challenge as one of two things, situation depending:
1) The fighter insulted or otherwise taunted the creature into combat with it. This works for certain monsters that are less intelligent and brutish.
2) The fighter is focusing all his attention on that one target, hardly noticing anything else, and spending every ounce of effort into preventing that target from escaping. This is the more common interpretation. It's not so much that the target is compelled to attack the fighter, it's that the fighter is offering no room for the target to attack anyone else.
The above works on any moderately intelligent monsters. The few really intelligent creatures (liches and dragons come to mind) and the few mindless creatures (wolves and zombies) are find sucking in an attack if it means they get to the squishy wizard in the back. Those creatures will be more prone to ignoring the penalties of a mark, at least in my opinion.
Got it whit the fighter, the paladin is easier cuz of the "Magical Compulsion" (ha love that)
may be i got it wrong cuz i was trying to compare it to the video game "Tank" concept.
still -2 penalty to attack doesn't seam to be a problem or a hard choice even with the extra damage i mean in the case of an NPC i got in front this beefed steel cube , if i ignore him is gona give me a mele basic attack that can miss or hit the rogue who's gona hit me for 3d8 in lvl1 an even with the penalty is easier to hit than the fighter
My point is that any intelligent character (player or not) would ignore the mark if there is a better target and since the challenge doesn't impair the movement it seams that the defender would end up chasing his target.
does that happen to you? the defenders ends up chasing?
I've only got experience DMing a fighter defender, and he is really good at locking down monsters. With their combat superiority (+Wis to AoO, and they stop movement when creature provokes an AoO by leaving a threatened square).
And, as a DM, if you're constantly having monsters ignore marks, I think you'd end up with a pretty annoyed defender, since his role is being completely undermined. It's like a controller fighting a battle where enemies auto-save on save ends effects. It's just not fun.
Personally, I tend to have marked monsters go almost exclusively for the defender that marked it, because it's those characters' jobs to get hit, and they should get a chance to do that job well. As a consequence, it lets the other characters shine: strikers get to do damage rather than run from monsters, controllers get to control vast mobs so the defenders aren't over-run, and leaders get to heal the defenders. All-in-all, it's a nice set up.
One thing I forgot to mention: monster role can also play into this. Skirmishers and lurkers are much more likely to ignore a mark than a soldier or brute.
Depends on the monster, how careful the are, how dangerous they think the marker is et cetera.
I strongly encourage changing this up often with your encounters and opponents. Monsters that always do the same thing become dull. So some encounters the monsters still try and eat the wizard, and others they stick on the fighter, still others they harass the fighter but try and pounce the wizard if a good opportunity arises, et cetera. When in doubt, error on the side of ignoring the mark, it'll make the defender happy as they feel like they're 'doing something' but at the same time possibly make the party sweat, which is fun to watch.
Now, the real question is: when do monsters eat mark/defender penalties in order to take a AoO? Lots of monsters have pathetic melee basics, while the punishment for taking them can get really, really bad. I've seen plenty of situations where people happily try and get AoOs (movement, barbarian powers that provoke) because they know it's a winning proposition... smart opponents shouldn't fall for that twice.
__________________ "I took a risk... and I ended up in the bag of holding" -the player of Ian Whitefire (deceased)
And, as a DM, if you're constantly having monsters ignore marks, I think you'd end up with a pretty annoyed defender, since his role is being completely undermined. It's like a controller fighting a battle where enemies auto-save on save ends effects. It's just not fun.
I've got the opposite opinion, playing with and DMing many defenders (3-4 fighters, 3-4 swordmages, 2 paladins and one warden by my count). The effects of your mark are often fun! And you get to smugly call out 'minus two' when the DM rolls, who doesn't enjoy that.
Though it depends on the defender a lot. I played my first session at paragon with my Kalashatar paladin today. Before now he an okay defender, his attacks did very little damage (compared to say our two-weapon fighter, who's AoOs and Combat Superiority attacks could do more than the strikers on a good roll). I handed out attack penalties left and right ('Minus six', even more fun that minus two) and just used positioning to try and make up for it, but 7 radiant damage just doesn't discourage most things. But as soon as I got the level 11 hosipitaliar power, wow. Healing 9 damage, hit or miss, after every swing that didn't include me is fantastic, I routinely reduced attacks to one or two damage when my mark was ignored, and I think over the course of the game I actually healed more damage than was dealt to other people after misses. Though all the fights today were with just one opponent, so I was super effective, once there's more opponents on the field I'm sure I'll feel a bit less powerful.
__________________ "I took a risk... and I ended up in the bag of holding" -the player of Ian Whitefire (deceased)
And, as a DM, if you're constantly having monsters ignore marks, I think you'd end up with a pretty annoyed defender, since his role is being completely undermined.
Well, depends on what kind of defender it is. A Fighter generally loves having his marks ignored, as that increases his damage potential a lot.
__________________ Carl Cramér
Member of the Netbook of Feats review board.
Got it whit the fighter, the paladin is easier cuz of the "Magical Compulsion" (ha love that)
may be i got it wrong cuz i was trying to compare it to the video game "Tank" concept.
still -2 penalty to attack doesn't seam to be a problem or a hard choice even with the extra damage i mean in the case of an NPC i got in front this beefed steel cube , if i ignore him is gona give me a mele basic attack that can miss or hit the rogue who's gona hit me for 3d8 in lvl1 an even with the penalty is easier to hit than the fighter
My point is that any intelligent character (player or not) would ignore the mark if there is a better target and since the challenge doesn't impair the movement it seams that the defender would end up chasing his target.
does that happen to you? the defenders ends up chasing?
When a creature is marked, it knows (either by seeing it or by sensing a magical "compulsion") that the marking character is focusing his attention on it. What the creature does NOT know is if there is any consequence to ignoring the mark.
Some creatures wil prefer to ignore the mark, some may even be unable to attack the marking character (for instance, it could be a swordmage marking from a while away). If they get punished by it, the creature may not ignore a mark later.
I'm with Destil and think you should play the full spectrum. I also used to have the bad guys strictly stick to the guys who marked them because I thought that that was what my players wanted. Eventually someone said something that made me realize that they were bummed cause they never got to see the other half of their mark abilities in action.
__________________ Life's a die and then you bitch.
Well, depends on what kind of defender it is. A Fighter generally loves having his marks ignored, as that increases his damage potential a lot.
This. Our fighter in home game absolutely taunts the DM into ignoring the mark (they're spouses) as it's usually a win either way. My shielding swordmage usually is indifferent as he only prevents 8 damage (heroic) if they don't attack him, although it's usually enough to mitigate most of the attack.
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