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Does my paladin have any chance against monsters that grab?
I'm playing a, now 11th level, kalashtar paladin in a weekly game. While the paragon path and feats make me feel both a lot more sturdy and effective as a defender, I still spent about one third of my last session grabbed by a grey-render. Have I missed any good options to help avoid/get out of this sort of thing?
A) Training Athletics or Acrobatics feels like too little, too late. Fort defenses are crazy high on most graby monsters, and my respective ability scores are 9 and 11. After the -4 armor check I don't think another +5 is going to get me anywhere close to getting out.
B) Magic items are not an option. I'm extremely lucky to have the flail, as this is an campaign with almost no magic items (we've so far each gotten a single level 8 item of our choice for selfless actions and one dagger that I'd classify as a lesser artifact, plus some consumables). Further the DM doesn't appear to care about the 'too hit' math and generally scales monsters numbers fairly erratically or not at all to compensate.
C) My companions do help me when they can. Slide and push powers from our strikers got me free twice with the render, for instance. But I wouldn't mind having a more reliable option on my own.
POWERS
Acolyte of Divine Secrets: Mantle of the Infidel
Lay on Hands: Lay on Hands
Paladin at-will 1: Bolstering Strike (retrained to Virtuous Strike at Level 8)
Paladin at-will 1: Enfeebling Strike
Power User Choice: Hand of Justice
Paladin encounter 1: Fearsome Smite
Paladin daily 1: Radiant Delirium
Paladin utility 2: Call of Challenge
Paladin encounter 3: Righteous Smite
Paladin daily 5: Hallowed Circle
Paladin utility 6: Wrath of the Gods
Paladin encounter 7: Astral Thunder
Paladin daily 9: Ray of Reprisal
Paladin utility 10: Turn the Tide
ITEMS
Heavy Shield, Plate Armor, Adventurer's Kit, Disrupting Triple-headed flail +2, Dagger, Potion of Vitality (paragon tier) (3)
__________________ "I took a risk... and I ended up in the bag of holding" -the player of Ian Whitefire (deceased)
There is an improved grab feat, but it requires a Str 13+.
So training in Athletics is your best option.
Unfortunately your guy is just built to suck at grappling. He has the highest ACP, and has no strength. But fortunately 4e monsters don't all go massive on the grabbing, only a few monsters tend to do it.
If you find you're succumbing to grapples that often, some retraining of powers might come in handy. The general theme is to be able to be a defender even if you can't move. Basically, embrace the grab . Ideas that might be worth chewing on:
Retrain Fearsome Smite to Dazzling Flare
Retrain Righteous Smite to Call to Arms
Retrain Wrath of the Gods to Divine Bodyguard
Retrain Turn the Tide to Vengeful Vigilance
And... hehe... Retrain Astral Thunder to Benign Transposition (though I suspect your ally won't consider it that benign )
IMO, you're point (B) is a much larger issue than dealing with grabs. Have you talked to your GM about the peril wholescale dismissal of that game math can lead to?
__________________
"I mean, being a bard is pretty silly. You walk into dungeons and SING at people. Who could take that seriously." - Elan, Order of the Stick
Actually there is a dirt simple way to get loose from a grab which makes grabbing a pretty ineffective tactic for monsters overall.
Push the monster away from the grabbed character. By RAW if the grabber is force moved away from the grabee the grab is automatically broken. There's no roll involved at all. Of course its possible that sometimes this may be difficult or impossible to do, but most parties have a pretty good amount of forced movement capability. For that matter no rule says the paladin can't be the one doing the forcing. In other words you can bull rush your opponent, push him back a square, and just pass on the chance to move up. Unless the monster is Huge or Gargantuan this can work OK. The better choice though is a force movement power with weapon or implement keyword so it hits a lot. Many of them don't target FORT either, so it won't help the monster to be a big old brute.
From my last game session, an NPC was blocking the exit of a narrow bridge. Being heroic, I decided to Bull Rush the NPC so as to allow my companions a chance to clear the bridge and engage other NPCs; open up the encounter so to speak. My character resembles Destil's in terms of stats so when I noted Bull Rush to hit was STR vs FORT, my heart sunk.
Can someone else confirm on a successful Bull Rush hit, that the NPC _and_ the PC have to move?
Quote:
Bull Rush
Hit: Push the target 1 square, and shift into the vacated space.
Back to thread discussion: if your character is not STR or DEX based the next best option is Forced Movement. I understand the concern, Immobilized as a condition prevents a Defender from their main focus which is to engage the enemy(ies). It depends how common your character is being grabbed during each encounter.
Can someone else confirm on a successful Bull Rush hit, that the NPC _and_ the PC have to move?
Well, the technical explanation is the PC force moves the enemy one square. Force movement is always optional, you could force them 0 squares if you want (but that would be rather pointless). The PC gets to shift into the vacated square, but again all movement is always optional, so you could forgo advancing and there are plenty of times when you might want to do that.
Acrobatics is a better pick than Athletics for getting out, most likely. Reflex is often a lower defense than Fortitude in such critters and your Dex is higher and Acrobatics goes against Reflex not Fortitude (PHB p288)
Remember that daze and stun also end grabs (PHB 290), and the creature can't opportunity attack you if it's grabbing you from a distance. So ranged and close dazes, which chaladins definitely have, are solid options.
Ha! I have bittersweet memories of two owlbears pwning a party of four 6th-level characters by simple virtue of the paladin being completely unable to shift out of the grab. Since then, multiclassing as warlord to get Athletics has been the SOP for pallys.
If you find you're succumbing to grapples that often, some retraining of powers might come in handy. The general theme is to be able to be a defender even if you can't move. Basically, embrace the grab . Ideas that might be worth chewing on: IMO, you're point (B) is a much larger issue than dealing with grabs. Have you talked to your GM about the peril wholescale dismissal of that game math can lead to?
I'm pretty happy with my powers, though Turn the Tide is really overload on save granters. May swap that back to navigate crowds, or pick up a multiclass feat and do a power swap.
My retraining options are getting soaked into picking up more paragon tier feats for at least the next level, though Turn the Tide is really save-granting overkill with my the new paragon path encounter power.
Yeah, the game math being off is of course a massive issue. In his eyes it's a feature and not a bug, though. Now that character creator supports inherent bonuses I may suggest trying them.
Though I just remembered by the book I'd be in masterwork armor at this point, no wonder my AC is getting hit on a by brutes on a 5 even after I hand out a -4 to attacks...
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvorak
From my last game session, an NPC was blocking the exit of a narrow bridge. Being heroic, I decided to Bull Rush the NPC so as to allow my companions a chance to clear the bridge and engage other NPCs; open up the encounter so to speak. My character resembles Destil's in terms of stats so when I noted Bull Rush to hit was STR vs FORT, my heart sunk.
Lars has had to make bull-rush attempts, too. However after failing for a few attempts, I moved to aiding another so our higher strength cleric (not by much, Str 13) could make the attempt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by keterys
Remember that daze and stun also end grabs (PHB 290), and the creature can't opportunity attack you if it's grabbing you from a distance. So ranged and close dazes, which chaladins definitely have, are solid options.
Ah, nice. I hadn't considered stun/dazing effects, and I've already got one (even if it's a ranged daily). Picking up a stun or daze the next chance I get for an encounter power just went way up on my list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felon
Ha! I have bittersweet memories of two owlbears pwning a party of four 6th-level characters by simple virtue of the paladin being completely unable to shift out of the grab. Since then, multiclassing as warlord to get Athletics has been the SOP for pallys.
I may consider taking a rogue multiclass feat for acrobatics training and a multiclass mobility power (Lars is a private eye), but the check penalty from plate + large shield makes me think I've dug way too deep a hole for my skills to get me out of a grab.
__________________ "I took a risk... and I ended up in the bag of holding" -the player of Ian Whitefire (deceased)
Last edited by Destil; 1st November 2009 at 09:39 PM..
Though I just remembered by the book I'd be in masterwork armor at this point, no wonder my AC is getting hit on a by brutes on a 5 even after I hand out a -4 to attacks...
Yeah, if you're not getting even masterwork armor, heavy armor wearers may as well pack up and go home. You're just going to get slaughtered.
Yeah, your AC is off by about 5 of what it should be, and your other defenses about 3. Ie, since you should have +3 armor/neck, totally ignoring any theories about math drift that are often discussed. That's just going to get even more rude as time goes on. Hopefully your DM is throwing lower level monsters (ie, like level 8-12 instead of 11-14) against you guys.
Yeah, your AC is off by about 5 of what it should be, and your other defenses about 3. Ie, since you should have +3 armor/neck, totally ignoring any theories about math drift that are often discussed. That's just going to get even more rude as time goes on. Hopefully your DM is throwing lower level monsters (ie, like level 8-12 instead of 11-14) against you guys.
Grey render was a level 19 brute with lowered defenses (so we could hit) and no other changes, though we only had 3 party members this session... I was eating about a surges and a half of damage a round while grabbed, and lost about 1/2 my hitpoints in a particularly vicious round. "You're hit for... 53 damage total." "And I gain 4 temp HP!" I don't think it was possible for it to miss me on a roll of a two, unsure of that point.
The healing from my paragon path mark prevented about 80% of the damage to my allies, though.
The group is large (7 players if everyone shows up) has some good optimizers, and even our least-optimal character (eladrin shielding cleric with 16 starting Wis. His healing words alone make him useful) is pretty damn effective. Our sorcerer is doing 40-50 damage with burning spray on a good round, we've reduced a solo 6 levels above us's possible damage output to a max of 6 damage a round (causing it to kill itself, I didn't have the heart to point out that was basically impossible with the cupe de grace rules). Sometimes we run into normalish things for our level, and we tend to tear them apart. But the heavy armor AC is really getting to be a sticking point, I'll have to bring up the lack of masterwork bonuses this week.
__________________ "I took a risk... and I ended up in the bag of holding" -the player of Ian Whitefire (deceased)
Last edited by Destil; 1st November 2009 at 11:25 PM..
As mentioned, your defenses are unfavorable due to the DM not giving you at least the benefits of the expected minimum bonuses from the level equivalent magic items. Then going and throwing an 8+ monster at you...yeah, even a 1 may still have hit at that point unless the DM ruled that 1s are always a miss/failure.
Anyways, on to how to escape grabs in a Cha/Wis Paladin?
MC Warlock, take Acolyte Power, and swap your Level 10 Utility for Ethereal Sidestep. Teleport 1 is all you'll need.
Our paladin has a magic item that lets her teleport a certain number of spaces per day, divided up as she pleases. This means one space teleports whenever she's grabbed.
MC Warlock, take Acolyte Power, and swap your Level 10 Utility for Ethereal Sidestep. Teleport 1 is all you'll need.
Not sure if it's a house rule because it's how we always play it, but in this game you actually need to get out of the grabber's reach, so teleport/slide 1 won't always do it (ran into this yesterday). The DM's sane enough to let me 'attack the arm' of the creature as it holds me outside my normal reach, at least.
__________________ "I took a risk... and I ended up in the bag of holding" -the player of Ian Whitefire (deceased)
Not sure if it's a house rule because it's how we always play it, but in this game you actually need to get out of the grabber's reach, so teleport/slide 1 won't always do it (ran into this yesterday). The DM's sane enough to let me 'attack the arm' of the creature as it holds me outside my normal reach, at least.
PHB page 286 (emphasis mine)
Immobilized: Being immobilized doesn’t prevent
you from teleporting. If you were immobilized
because of a physical effect, such as a creature grabbing
you, you can teleport away and are no longer
immobilized or restrained, if applicable. If you were
immobilized because of an effect on your mind or
body, teleporting does not end that effect; you’re still
immobilized when you reach your destination.
. Ideas that might be worth chewing on:
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