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Is there any sort of ruling for if an invisible creature moves through the square of another invisible creature and neither of them are aware of each others presence? Would it be the same ruling if these creatures were hidden or being stealthy rather than invisible. Sorry if this is obvious, it stumped our group last night. Peace!
Is there any sort of ruling for if an invisible creature moves through the square of another invisible creature and neither of them are aware of each others presence? Would it be the same ruling if these creatures were hidden or being stealthy rather than invisible. Sorry if this is obvious, it stumped our group last night. Peace!
1) Invisible <> Hidden. You can be invisible and not hidden, if your Stealth check is not good enough. You still cannot be seen, but your position is revealed.
2) I am not quite sure, but attempting to enter a space containing a hidden creature reveals that creature, iirc. Don't quote me on that one, but regardless, you can't do it, so that alone should tip you off.
Well, if they aren't aware of each other's presence (i.e. hidden) and they are both invisible, I would've thought that you then consider the normal movement rules.
Invisibilty doesn't mean you have phasing, this means that the 2 invisible creatures would collide, imagine 2 people blindfolded walking into each other. You still cannot walk through an enemy square through normal movement rules which means you would stop, and passive perception would tell both creatures something else is there.
__________________ DM: You see a small blue blink dog approach you.
Player 1: Oh ... my .. god, a pokemon! Quick, catch it!
First off, you'll provoke an OA when trying to enter the nonhelpless enemy's space: "Moving into a nonhelpless enemy’s space provokes an opportunity attack from that enemy, because you left a square adjacent to the enemy. (Some powers let you move through an enemy’s square without provoking an opportunity attack.)"
Secondly, you normally can't move through his space: "You normally can’t move through an enemy’s space unless that enemy is helpless or two size categories larger or smaller than you." This would imply that sometimes you can, and that sometimes is probably due to a power.
Therefore, I would allow the OA (which need not be taken), and then stop your movement based on the similar occurrence with flight and hitting a wall. You would then know about each other's presence.
I think this is a job for Rule 0 and create the funniest effect you can come up with.
At least they should collide and the one who looses an Athletics check gets pushed away 1 or 2 squares, and they both make an Acrobatics check to not falling prone. Or something.
Anyway, they should become aware of each other and their positions, but keeping invisibility.
I'm not convinced RAW isn't adequate to cover this situation.
We know you cannot enter the space of an enemy (unless he's helpless or much bigger/smaller than you). So any attempt to move into said space fails. Fluff-wise its pretty easy to describe, you run into something.
Also note the "Enemy Activity" clause of Stealth. PHB2 p222 where it says "If an enemy tries to enter your space, you don't remain hidden from that enemy."
So, the mechanical effect is that when you run into someone like this, they are no longer hidden from you, though still invisible. Logically I think the converse should apply as well, you won't be hidden from them anymore either (though this is not anywhere spelled out in the rules).
That's about it. The guy you ran into isn't hidden anymore and you fail to move into his space, and logically you aren't hidden from him anymore either. You can easily take a swing at him at this point since you are aware of each other's locations. You'll have CA but he'll still be totally concealed for a net -3 to-hit.
Actually, come to think of it, they -are- still hidden from you, however you have a -very- good guess as to which space to attack so that hiddenness won't really do them much good.
Actually, come to think of it, they -are- still hidden from you, however you have a -very- good guess as to which space to attack so that hiddenness won't really do them much good.
Nah, read that last bullet point in the revised stealth rules. When you enter their space, they lose their hidden status.
Hey thanks alot for all of your help, particularly Abdul, your RAW interpretation should work fine for us. I totally agree with your logic regarding both creatures' awareness . Peace!
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