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As mentioned in another thread, I'm switching from DM to player in a homebrew campaign currently at 5th level and am still weighing my options for a character, with the two leading candidates being a deva avenger and a half-orc fighter (with assassin and monk also being tempting).
I am probably going with a deva avenger for various reasons, but am thinking about whether I want to avoid the seemingly commonplace fullblade-wielding avenger. First of all, in terms of "fluff," what exactly is the difference between a bastard sword, great sword and a fullblade? Let me see if I've got this right:
A bastard sword is a slightly bigger weapon than a longsword, with a longer hilt for two hands, probably about 4 ft long with hilt. A greatsword is even bigger and requires two hands, about 4.5 to 5 ft in length. A fullblade is even bigger, bordering on fantastical proportions at 5+ ft in length.
Based upon that, if I'm going solely upon fluff I'd probably go with the greatsword--the fullblade just reminds me a bit too much of goofy anime or (gasp!) Exalted. But in terms of "crunch" the fullblade is obviously a superior weapon (and better than the bastard sword if I'm going to spend a feat and won't be needing versatility). The question being, is there a feat that I could take that would somewhat balance out the fullblade's high crit and extra d2 damage? So the options are:
*fullblade +3 prof, d12 damage, high crit (costs a feat)
*greatsword +3 prof, d10 damage, extra feat
If I was going the route of greatsword, what should I take as an extra feat? I've also thought about using a great axe, but I'm more of a sword guy, and an axe seems too crude a weapon for a deva.
I think you got the fullblade thing right. It is just a silly greatsword.
Depending on what kind of game you are in, pick either the best flavor option (bastard or greatsword) or the best game mechanical option (fullblade). You only really need to do the latter when the game is really min-max optimized dpr contest (exaggerating only a little...). In otherwords, play what you like unless you are really hurt badly by doing that.
As for the extra feat, you definitely want to take the defense feat for avengers (forget the name).
Mercurius, seems like you've painted yourself into a bit of a corner. You want a sword because you fancy yourself a sword guy, but you consider the best sword available to be too goofy for your tastes. If axes seem inappropriate, consider a greatspear. You can puncture villains without sullying yourself with their blood. And yes, a greatspear is just a really big spear.
There's no benefit from wileding a greatsword that's going to match the benefits you'll get from wielding a fullblade.
Yeah I periodically get the why is this a different weapon, between fullblade and greatsword. Here is my solution. Pretend the feat is superior weapon mastery for the greatsword... mechanically its a fullblade but visually and realistically its just you using the greatsword better... I think I seen a house rule that did something similar. But really reskinning is very player perogative I have characters for whom the anime weapon is appropriate they are conceptually supernaturally strong so it fits. (See aspect of might for the Avenger).
I love Deva Avengers by the way ... my favorite character is one.
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”
Garthanos, that is exactly where I was heading as I read your words. Thanks for the affirmation!
So I'm going with the fullblade, silly or not ;-).
Another question: As a 5th level character he will have 3 feats. I'm definitely taking Improved Armor of Faith and Fullblade proficiency, but I'm trying to decide what to do with that third slot. The "conservative" choice would be to take Weapon Focus or Expertise, but I kind of want something a bit more snazzy (that is, flavorful); I'm also thinking both can wait until Paragon tier, when they garner +2 bonuses. Auspicious Lineage is also tempting for the d8 instead of d6 on A Thousand Lifetimes, but that too is just "more of the same."
I was toying with an assassin character, or an avenger-assassin hybrid (which I don't think Character Builder can do), so I'm thinking about Shadow Initiate, the assassin multiclass which allows using the Shroud twice per encounter, giving an extra d6 damage which seems very good--and in a way better than Weapon Focus, at least for shorter encounters (+d6 twice per encounter vs. +1 every attack).
I'm also considering Armor Proficiency in Leather, which would add 2 to the character's AC.
So my thoughts so far are: Weapon Expertise or Focus, Auspicious Lineage, Shadow Initiate, Armor Proficiency (Leather).
FWIW, my Deva Avenger wields a longsword and does fine, so really it's all down to how crunchy you want to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercurius
Another question: As a 5th level character he will have 3 feats. I'm definitely taking Improved Armor of Faith and Fullblade proficiency, but I'm trying to decide what to do with that third slot.
...
So my thoughts so far are: Weapon Expertise or Focus, Auspicious Lineage, Shadow Initiate, Armor Proficiency (Leather).
Any other ideas?
Depending on what Censure you choose, it is possible for your Avenger to have "too high" an AC. That is, if you don't get hit then a Censure of Retribution never triggers. So, I would say that Leather Proficiency probably wouldn't be at the top of the list for feat choices, since you're already taking Imp. Armor of Faith. If the lower AC concerns you, consider getting Bloodthread armor, which will mimic Leather armor when you're bloodied.
With the Oath of Enmity double attack roll, the extra +1 from Weapon Expertise becomes less useful, too.
Weapon Focus is decent if all your attacks are Weapon attacks; if you have some Implement attacks, it won't be applied on those.
A bit of flavor-driven feat choice is always nice, so from what you list I'd edge to the multi-class feat.
For my Deva Avenger, I made sure to have Melee Training so that my OAs and Warlord-granted attacks didn't suck.
If you have access to Divine Power, it could be worthwhile to look at the Domain feats associated with your deity -- they're the ones that beef up an at-will and give +2 to a skill.
Just a note on the whole mechanical superiority of the fullblade thing...
Is it really superior? You're basically taking a feat to give your greatsword an average of around 1.5 extra damage per hit. That really isn't all that terrific a deal for a feat. Superior weapon proficiencies definitely very much make sense when you're upgrading from a simple weapon. They can make sense when there is some particular property of the superior weapon you can't get with a military equivalent. Otherwise military weapon and an extra feat is almost always the better choice. Exceptions would be if your character's build is going to be focused on high W attacks where the damage bonus can apply multiple times. Often it makes sense to upgrade later in paragon, but mostly don't bother in heroic unless you're a barbarian pretty much.
Power Attack is actually interesting for an avenger. With OoE cranking up your hit probability as much as it is and crits probably won't be reduced at all by using it, it becomes an interesting choice. For most characters its worthless, but in this case may be worth a look.
Seriously -- it takes you from one of the worst basic attacks for a melee fighter to one of the best -- which gives you an opportunity attack, synergy with the warlord or shaman, and best of all, a charge attack worth talking about.
If you want a better and more flavorful alternative, dedicate yourself to a deity with the Skill domain and take Power of Skill -- and get the ability to use Overwhelming Strike (already probably the best Avenger at-will melee ability) as a basic attack.
Just a note on the whole mechanical superiority of the fullblade thing...
Is it really superior? You're basically taking a feat to give your greatsword an average of around 1.5 extra damage per hit.
Pretty much, yeah. Avengers Hit More Often, so they get more milage from extra damage.
Plus, they Crit More Often, so they get more milage out of high crit than other characters in the heroic tier.
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Power Attack is actually interesting for an avenger. With OoE cranking up your hit probability as much as it is and crits probably won't be reduced at all by using it, it becomes an interesting choice. For most characters its worthless, but in this case may be worth a look.
Power Attack requires strength. Avengers aren't really strong on strength (as it were).
For flavore there's also Deva Heritage (kind of redundent sounding, I know). Get your glow on as a stance and work that reincarnated goodness to penalize attacks against you at a -2 clip.
I think the upgrade from Greatsword to Fullblade is a bit better than the upgrade from Maul to Mordenkrad, or Greataxe to Execution Axe. You get both a die size increase, and high crit.
The high crit part is where a fullblade would really be valuable to an Avenger, making it worth the pick. Otherwise, you're looking at about the same increase as Weapon Focus for 1[W] powers.
I agree with the above folks, though, that you should talk with your DM about reskinning the feat so it's a Greatsword, but you do cooler stuff with it. Nothing wrong with a good reskin to help you visualize your character better.
Power Attack requires strength. Avengers aren't really strong on strength (as it were).
Admittedly true. Still, it is not clear that spending a feat on fullblade is the best possible option. Lots of players jump at swinging the biggest possible weapon but usually if you look at it a bit its a pretty marginal upgrade.
F
Depending on what Censure you choose, it is possible for your Avenger to have "too high" an AC. That is, if you don't get hit then a Censure of Retribution never triggers.
But never getting hit is very nice by itself. Censures aren't really supposed to be triggered all the time: they're about giving the enemy a choice between two bad options ("attack the Avenger and he does more more damage vs. not attack him and let him take out my friend", or "run away and suffer more damage or stay here and keep getting hit by this guy"). It's a way of discouraging a specific action, not a standard striker added damage feature. If you're not getting hit, then you must be doing something right.
Other feats to take: Skill domain is very, very good. Battle Awareness (Fighter multiclass in Martial Power) is good if you're not doing any other multiclassing. Channel Divinity feats can be interesting and fun, depending on who you're going to worship.
Admittedly true. Still, it is not clear that spending a feat on fullblade is the best possible option.
The best? No -- probably, the best option is starting with a greataxe and switching weapons when you've got a free feat slot. OTOH, if it's between fullblade and greatsword, I'm not seeing a lot of options that increase damage as well. Hmm. If we assume that 10-19 hits (+3 weapon, +5 stat mod, so likely), and a 20 crits, we have dpr(noncrit) increase: .75 * +1 (and +2 and +3 for full-W encounters and dailies). For crits, we have .0975 * +2+6.5 for at-wills, and 4+6.5 and 6+6.5 for 2W and 3W weapons. Doing the math a bit, that means you get an increase of 1.58 in DPR (-not- in damage per hit) for at-wills, and better than 3.45 increase at the top end in your big daily damage. This...isn't quite the performance you get from the Broken Bracers -- but is a better damage increase than you can get from any other feat (as an Avenger) that I know of. Of course, you can go in other directions -- if you're not starting out with a big weapon, you might go more controlly -- with powers that don't focus on big Ws, but instead going for effects. You won't be doing the striker job of "take down your mark" as well -- but you might do better at covering a single-target controller job when it's needed, herding your prey away from the big battle and making it fight you (more slowly) one on one.
I still think a Jagged Execution Axe is hard to beat...
19-20 Crit range
High Crit dmg
Brutal 2 property
D12
Now if I could only talk our DMs out of the belief that Magic is non-existent, the weapon you have should last you at least 10-20 levels, weapon mods? We don't need no stinkin' weapon mods, etc, etc,....
Until then, a weapon like that is a faraway dream.........
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The best? No -- probably, the best option is starting with a greataxe and switching weapons when you've got a free feat slot. OTOH, if it's between fullblade and greatsword, I'm not seeing a lot of options that increase damage as well. Hmm. If we assume that 10-19 hits (+3 weapon, +5 stat mod, so likely), and a 20 crits, we have dpr(noncrit) increase: .75 * +1 (and +2 and +3 for full-W encounters and dailies). For crits, we have .0975 * +2+6.5 for at-wills, and 4+6.5 and 6+6.5 for 2W and 3W weapons. Doing the math a bit, that means you get an increase of 1.58 in DPR (-not- in damage per hit) for at-wills, and better than 3.45 increase at the top end in your big daily damage. This...isn't quite the performance you get from the Broken Bracers -- but is a better damage increase than you can get from any other feat (as an Avenger) that I know of. Of course, you can go in other directions -- if you're not starting out with a big weapon, you might go more controlly -- with powers that don't focus on big Ws, but instead going for effects. You won't be doing the striker job of "take down your mark" as well -- but you might do better at covering a single-target controller job when it's needed, herding your prey away from the big battle and making it fight you (more slowly) one on one.
Interesting. So Avenger looks to be that case where it DOES pay to go from military -> superior. Cool. Might still be worth going for Weapon Expertise/Focus first, but then again maybe not.
I still think a Jagged Execution Axe is hard to beat...
At 11th level? 10 ongoing isn't as good as 3d12 -- though it's better than 3d6, but there are very few alternative options to get an expanded crit range for an avenger who isn't built as a half-elven daggermaster (ie, "I can't hit with dailies or encounter powers. I am completely MAD, needing dex, str, wis, and/or mabye chr (or maybe just chr and wis and -some- dex). But I do have a kick-ass at-will that crits a lot").
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLord Of DForce
Now if I could only talk our DMs out of the belief that Magic is non-existent, the weapon you have should last you at least 10-20 levels...
This...works fine (ish) if you use inherent bonuses from DMG2. But not so much otherwise, unless the DM is also giving you monsters that are a challenge at your level without level-appropriate gear.
At 11th level? 10 ongoing isn't as good as 3d12 -- though it's better than 3d6, but there are very few alternative options to get an expanded crit range for an avenger who isn't built as a half-elven daggermaster (ie, "I can't hit with dailies or encounter powers. I am completely MAD, needing dex, str, wis, and/or mabye chr (or maybe just chr and wis and -some- dex). But I do have a kick-ass at-will that crits a lot"). This...works fine (ish) if you use inherent bonuses from DMG2. But not so much otherwise, unless the DM is also giving you monsters that are a challenge at your level without level-appropriate gear.
1) Persuing Avenger Dagger Master needs Dexterity and Wisdom. Nothing more. Seriously. -NOTHING- more.
2) Admittedly Ardent Champion Critvenger needs Dexterity, Strength, and Wisdom, isn't has heavy in the Dex department, but crits almost as often and for a TON more damage. But, it's totally doable so long as you rely less on your censure and more on your oath... and that IS something that Persuing is capable of doing with all the movement it gets.
![[Avenger] To fullblade or not to fullblade](http://www.enworld.org/forum/iconimages/d-d-4th-edition-rules/avenger-fullblade-not-fullblade_ltr.gif)
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