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Rain of Blood encounter power lvl 7/Invoker is too powerfull
Don't you think so?
Rain of Blood Invoker Attack 7
Blood rains downfrtrm the sky. pelting your enemies.
Encounter • Divine, Implement
Standard A c t i o n Area burst 2 within 10 squares
Target: Each enemy in burst
Attack: W i s d om vs. Fortitude
Hit: 2d6 + W i s d om modifier damage, a n d t he target gains
vulnerable 5 to all damage until the end of your next
turn.
Covenant of W r a t h : Until the end of your next turn, each
ally in the burst gains a power bonus to attack rolls equal
to your Constitution modifier.
We are playing standard company and this power really rocks.
I don't see it as being too overpowered. Surely some great combinations that come to mind but otherwise nothing I would consider a red-flag for revision.
__________________ Matt James
Freelance Game Designer Loremaster.org
Doesn't seem that broken to me, after all only the allies in the 5x5 square get the buff. As well as only the enemies in that square get the debuff.
No more powerful than some of the warlord powers that grant +power bonus to all attacks for a turn/encounter. It is still a great power though, not denying that, any covenant of wrath invoker should take it.
__________________ DM: You see a small blue blink dog approach you.
Player 1: Oh ... my .. god, a pokemon! Quick, catch it!
Well, most of those warlord powers require hitting and don't hit many enemies while also giving them vulnerability. So I'd say that it is more effective than them.
It probably is a little too good, but not enough that I'd go crazy about it. The real trick is that someone keeps forgetting that attack bonuses and penalties don't need to be, and probably shouldn't, be based on ability scores.
I'm of the mind that this power feels over powered for its level. I would be perfectly happy taking this as a level 23 encounter power as written. Or even as a level 9 daily this thing would be solid. As is I doubt I'd ever trade out this Encounter power seeing as how beneficial it is to a party.
In my opinion it is the attack roll bonus that makes it so strong, the other part of the ability is very good, but not anything I'd consider to be broken.
Standard encounter runs in the following manner.
Invoker casts rain of blood on group of foes (if not available, all party trying to lure them in such position using different tactics), after that all enemies are damaged by rain of blood, have vulnerability and melee characters have +3 attack bonus over them. After Invnokers turn all chars in party use action point if there is one, so it is actually +10 to damage, with two attacks, but our party warlord have Bravura Presence, this leads to +15 to damage if all attacks hits. Our party has 5 characters (Paladin, Invoker, Warlord, Ranger, Warlock), so in the best case this leads to 5*15= 75 additional damage only for rain of blood, if we will take average. It will be 37, this is also much, because attack of the party is higher then defenses of monster. As well, Rain of Blood + Wrath of the Gods is ultimate combination. Also, "power bonus to attack rolls equal
to your Constitution modifier" allow to land a hit much easy. Soon it will be +4 for our invoker!
I don't have any issues in running encounters, I always can make monsters tougher or other stuff. I am concerned about this power, because it looks to powerful compare to other powers of other characters.
Last edited by iyalovoi; 4th November 2009 at 07:47 PM..
Also area attack deals more damage per attack using vulnerability. If you will hit 3 vulnerable foes with area attack this will be +15 to whole damage, but you can do such attack 3 times...
The Invoker needs to hit with the power to grant the vulnerability and the players need to be in the blast to get the bonus to hit. In our group we usually have one or two players getting the bonus to hit and two or three monsters getting the vulnerability.
Comparing it to the level 7 Wizard powers is a clear win for this power, more damage, vulnerability, party buffing.
I stopped bunching my monsters together a loooong time ago though, and stopped using melee minions - they made the encounters easier (Damage buff from covenant of wrath).
Personally I think the Invoker is waaaay overpowered early on, but at level 7 he only takes off about 50% of the hp of my mobs if he novaes (Rain of Blood + Angelic Echelon /Astral Terror/Sun Hammer). At level 2 the Invoker could do about 30 damage per target in one round, or roughly 80-100% of their hp.
As the mobs get more and more hp, his static modifiers scale a bit more slowly, especially Covenant of Wrath. On the other hand, he gets Solar Wrath from the Rainbow Servant for a gigantic Close Burst 8 at level 11. That should get every mob with covenant of Wrath and even ranged minions will make the encounters easier.
I think part of the problem with the Invoker is his easy access to very large AoE effects that only targets enemies. Something I have a feeling is being overlooked. The wizard has powers that LOOK like they do more damage, but they don't as you have a much harder time only targeting as many enemies without killing your own.
I have no idea why people are complaining about the Ranger when the invoker has a power that targets THREE creatures and does 1d4+stat damage. At level 8, our Ranger does about 13 DPR with Twin Strike, while the Invoker does 19 DPR.
One might say that the Invoker is a sucky controller because he has few conditions on his powers, but in reality he has wicked control due to the following: Bunching up makes you take awful amounts of damage; The best condition to apply to an enemy is the "dead" condition...
Yeah, that is my little rant about the Invoker...
Hmm... manage to kill the Invoker once, but that was because he got himself cornered in a small room by himself separated from the party and he had the worst luck ever.
That was my little rant for the day...
Did I mention that I don't like the design on the Invoker? "Ooooh this first level encounter power only does 1d6+wis damage... or... maybe? hmm 1d6+wis+5 enemies+1implement+staff of ruin+1 weapon focus.. To 5 targets dispersed over 7x7 squares... hmm... 16 avg damage with a hit rate of about 60% (targetting will) 80*0.6 = 48 damage from a level 1 encounter power. Unless he is human and using his action point.. then it's 75*0.75 = 56 damage...
What bothers me isn't really the damage but how easy it is for the Invoker to set it up. There is nearly no tactical positioning involved. Which means it gets repeated nearly every encounter. I usually just view mobs in encounters with the Invoker as having 30-40% less hp. I have managed to neutralize him once or twice with soldiers with immobilizing powers, dazes or similar powers but it's the exception and hard to do. I have to keep him far away from the action for it to have any effect.
Personally I like the Invoker. Actually a Hybrid Invoker Cleric is what I would play if I could ever get out of the DM's chair. I don't know why they don't get more love from people.
The way your party coordinates with this power is very painful indeed. My party could never dream of such coordination so it wouldn't be an issue for me personally... whoever took on the DM could have it tough though now I've read how your party does it and I've made a mental note just in case.
I guess the one disadventage is that it attack Fort, so the ones likely to bunch up with the party are going to be mostly soldiers and brutes who generally have high Fort defenses. Controllers and artillery have no reason to be caught up in a power like that, and after all they are the one's more vulnerable to Fort attack.
What's his accuracy like?
__________________ 'I am a predator...the predator improves the race...I kill but not out of hate.' Frank Herbert: Emperor God of Dune
Blackbrrd - I still disagree almost entirely with you on the balance of the invoker, since it's actually the first controller whose encounter powers made me say that it was worth having one over a striker like the sorcerer or defender like the swordmage instead...
But why don't you just not allow Covenant of Wrath in your game if that one ability bothers you so much?
Standard encounter runs in the following manner.
Invoker casts rain of blood on group of foes (if not available, all party trying to lure them in such position using different tactics), after that all enemies are damaged by rain of blood, have vulnerability and melee characters have +3 attack bonus over them. After Invnokers turn all chars in party use action point if there is one, so it is actually +10 to damage, with two attacks, but our party warlord have Bravura Presence, this leads to +15 to damage if all attacks hits. Our party has 5 characters (Paladin, Invoker, Warlord, Ranger, Warlock), so in the best case this leads to 5*15= 75 additional damage only for rain of blood, if we will take average. It will be 37, this is also much, because attack of the party is higher then defenses of monster. As well, Rain of Blood + Wrath of the Gods is ultimate combination. Also, "power bonus to attack rolls equal
to your Constitution modifier" allow to land a hit much easy. Soon it will be +4 for our invoker!
I don't have any issues in running encounters, I always can make monsters tougher or other stuff. I am concerned about this power, because it looks to powerful compare to other powers of other characters.
Sounds like I should encourage our Invoker to take this when we hit 7th. Our fights tend to be against hordes of soldiers (high defenses) and last way too long. This might make the length of combat bearable again.
__________________ "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson 18th century English author.
Well, soldiers tend to have high Forts so that's one downside too.
But, really, it sounds like your DM is overusing soldiers. Talk to him about it, instead.
I've tried but he seems to think unless one PC dies per fight we aren't being challenged. We recently had a fight where through excellent use of tactics and maneuvering we managed to isolate the main bad guy (a soldier with a 26AC 22 Fort 21 Reflex and 21 Will vs. 5 4th level PCs) for several rounds while we mopped up his cronies. When we finally get to grips with the main bad guy a troll and 2 more soldier type baddies show up. End result - 2 dead PCs (this after killing another PC in the past session also with a soldier heavy group). I have talked about this with him but when he completely ignores any advice I give (I DM this same group too) and just follows the written word in the adventure he is running it gets more than a little frustrating.
__________________ "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson 18th century English author.
It targets fort. unless your DM is adjusting defenses or choosing opponents very careful this is a big disadvantage. Invokers actually have a pretty good number of fort targeting powers...
I played with an avenger who pretty felt all but useless in about 1/2 of our encounters because he hit fort almost exclusivity. Bad choices on his part maybe (and on the DM, too), but it's another thing to think about with the class.
__________________ "I took a risk... and I ended up in the bag of holding" -the player of Ian Whitefire (deceased)
One thing I have found is that different classes focus their strengths in different power types.
Looking at the controllers for example, wizards have some of the strongest dailies in the game, they are often game changing for a combat. Invoker dailies are not that good, but I have they have very solid encounter powers. Meanwhile the druid have the best controller at wills, but decent dailies and encounters.
Wizard lvl 3 encounter power:
Close burst 3 (target's only enemies)
Int vs. Fort; 1d8+Int fire damage, and ongoing 5 fire damage.
Sure, the invoker's power is has a neat effect, but it's also higher level, smaller area, and provoke's OA's. For that matter, if the wizard does the staff trick, he can out-AC the paladin at these levels, so he'll probably be no less rugged than the invoker. Not to mention the fact that the wizard's dailies are generally better, and, by now, he has a huge selection of pretty good at-wills.
I get the impression the wizard is overall more powerful than the invoker - although the invoker does have the superior encounter powers.
__________________
4e balanced random loot system
- Think item wishlists are devilspawn?
- Dislike the impact of a few bad item picks by the DM on the party?
- Or find it ludicrous that PC's constantly just "happen" to find magic items tailored to their needs?
Try: A simpler treasure system for (mostly) random loot.
3.5 death&dying variant
- Tired of players that won't cure their mortally wounded allies 'cause "he's only at -2"?
- Tired of a dying mechanic which uses anachronistic d10's?
- Tired of a dying mechanic which never kicks into action for high level characters, which tend to go from alive and kicking to instant death before anyone can intervene?
- Tired of horribly complex house rules?
Try: Death & Dying - a better (and simple!) system
I suspect that if you polled many invokers, they'd happily take an area burst 2 over a close burst 3, so I wouldn't try to base an argument on theoretical inferiority of area type there.
That said, the only real problem with the ability is the massive bonus to hit. If that weren't there, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
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