D&D 4th Edition RulesAsk questions about 4th-Edition rules and the like in here. General discussion about 4E or any other game belongs in General RPG Discussion, above.
YMMV, but the defenders in my group tend to be good at self-preservation, but not so hot at keeping the head off the softer party members. We've only had fighters and paladins serving in that role, and their only real tactic for defending seems to be to run up to whatever seems nastiest and throw a mark on it. Now, a fighter can at least stop movement with an oppy, but divine challenge has a nasty habit of being ignorable. Perhaps more to the issue, they seem to become just as much locked-down as the foe they're engaged with, and that allows other monsters to do an end run around them (or shoot past them to the back ranks).
I haven't played a defender myself, only built them (other folks want to jump into that role because they like the archetype of big, strong, weapon guy). At a cursory level, swordmages seem good at defending over distance, although they are largely limited to marking a single target. Wardens seem like they're good at locking down multiple nearby (not necessarily adjacent) enemies.
Howzabout some voices of experience? What defender builds allow for the best defense of the entire party?
In two of our groups we have fighter/paladin teams, and they do just fine soaking up damage for us. I think this is a bit DM dependent too. If the DM wants to ignore the front line defenders and focus fire on the wizard in the back, no player power can stop the DM.
__________________ Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
We've had experiences with a Paladin, a Swordmage, and a Warden.
The Paladin was great at single target (this was pre-Divine Power fyi) but not so good at keeping away a mass of baddies. Once he hit paragon and took Divine Champion, he became the utter solo-lockdown (dazed and weakened for the encounter AND it has a bonus to hit?).
The Swordmage was decent at what he did, but not amazing. In part it was because he was an assault swordmage and neither the player running him nor the rest of us really knew exactly how exactly to play him.
The Warden has been awesome. Only had him for two sessions (since the swordmage died), but in his second fight, two of the characters(the cleric and the wizard) were lying and dying, the sorcerer was bloodied and going 1v1 vs a flying elite, leaving the Warden to take on 4 level+1 brutes on his own(griffons + custom griffon knights). He popped his Winter Frost power, marked all the brutes around them and proceeded to keep them all locked on him and killed most of them without any support at all.
So, in our experience so far Paladin, at least at Paragon, equals awesome solo-lockdown. Warden equals awesome group control. Swordmage equals meh.
__________________ Robots, assassins, hobgoblins, the Ashen Tower, polite beholders, land pirates, gnome genocide, the Corpse Ramp, artifacts, exploding zombie dragons, flying islands, dying heroes, blood feuds, vanished races, the Black City: Rise of Felskein.
Defenders do a pretty good job of grabbing the attention of the enemy they have marked. This is great if there is a single strong enemy aided by lesser creatures, but isn't as useful if there are several medium strength enemies.
Some defenders (fighters, basically) also limit enemy mobility through strong OAs. This is great if the encounter takes place in a constricted area, but otherwise has limited value.
It gets a little better at Paragon tier when martial defenders can take the feat Daunting Challenge, which increases the penalty from their mark to -3.
For me, the fun of playing a defender comes in taking OAs. If the DM shies away from OAs, I'd rather play striker.
In two of our groups we have fighter/paladin teams, and they do just fine soaking up damage for us. I think this is a bit DM dependent too. If the DM wants to ignore the front line defenders and focus fire on the wizard in the back, no player power can stop the DM.
Granted, the DM can just gather up all the character sheets and tear them into little tiny pieces. Or he can accommodate the party by having the monsters all conveniently pancake against the front rank.
Let's assume a median position where the DM is availing himself of tactical advantages whenever possible. Soft targets are appealing and worth going after. If it's possible to bog down a meat shield, they'll do so. Are any defenders capable at providing comprehensive defense instead of just single-target lockdown?
Ore are quasi-defenders a better option? Controllers that summon, shamen, petmaster rangers, and so forth?
Both of my defenders, fighter and paladin, potentially lock down several targets at once. Come and Get It, Sweeping Blow, Daring Shot , etc are good for marking several targets at once and keeping them in your vicinity the threat of OA and on-shift attack often negates attempts for movement. Divine sanction via Virtuous Smite, Call of Challenge, Ardent Vow, Majestic Halo, etc all multi mark. Even the very basic option to divine challenge one target that you can keep adjacent while ardent striking another target.
My fighter is pretty awesome at actually defending. Come and Get It is an amazing power, since it lets me pull enemies off the squishies and simultaneously marks them. If I keep spamming Close Burst attacks, I can keep that mass of enemies occupied for a really long time.
Also Shield Push is very effective at denying actions. You get to push them before they resolve any attacks, so many times I actively prevent attacks against my allies.
But really, defenders aren't supposed to soak all the attacks, only a larger than normal share. The strikers and controllers have 7+ healing surges too that they can soak some hits with. The Defender's goal shouldn't be to attract every single enemy's attacks.
"Let's assume a median position where the DM is availing himself of tactical advantages whenever possible."
I'm with Mengu in that it doesn't seem like that's happened, based on reading your OP. I don't see how divine challenge is ignorable, nor do I see how you can shoot past a fighter that has locked you down. If the DM is ignoring the effects of the defender classes, he either has a really good reason (in which case your OP is moot), or Mengu's point is valid.
IME, we've had fighters, paladins, and wardens, and all three were quite good at their roles at low levels. I'm currently playing a ranger and I'm all for the bad guys 'ignoring' the warden to get at me. +2 to defenses? Good deal. Warden's done his job if he grants me +2 on all defenses every round.
You want abilities like Come and Get It or things that Divine Sanction everything in a burst. Come and Get It is a powerful tool for reshaping the battlefield. Paladin marks take an action to start, but not for punishment, so if a large number of enemies are marked, each one can suffer. You can also have your defenders look into various abilities that inflict Prone, since that makes it much harder for enemies to engage selectively.
Adding more crap allies isn't going to prevent your squishies from being attacking unless you routinely fight in such narrow spaces that they'll block the charge lines. If the monsters will ignore punishment from a fighter, do you think some weak summon will deter them? You're just giving them more targets to ignore.
Also, just because there's a defender doesn't mean other characters get to ignore defense. A wizard in leather with Shield and Wizard's Escape doesn't need a whole lot of help to stay up most of the time.
__________________ "I'd like to shake the hand of the genius who invented that - just the hand, after it's been cut off from the now screaming man."
I'm with Mengu in that it doesn't seem like that's happened, based on reading your OP. I don't see how divine challenge is ignorable, nor do I see how you can shoot past a fighter that has locked you down. If the DM is ignoring the effects of the defender classes, he either has a really good reason (in which case your OP is moot), or Mengu's point is valid.
This is a false dichotomy. The DM's "good reason" is that the effects in question (combat challenge and divine challenge) are inadequate at discouraging the enemies from attacking the squishies. That doesn't mean that no effect exists which might do a better job.
The monster accepts the damage from divine challenge because it's a relatively paltry amount of damage. The -2 penalty from marked can make a difference, but if you're still softer than the defender even after the penalty, you're still an appealing target.
Moreover, as I mentioned in my OP, the fighter and paladin are easy to end run around once they get locked down by the creature(s) they engaged. Combat challenge and divine challenge are largely dependent on adjacency. Other enemies can maneuver around or just sit back and shoot past them.
Last edited by Felon; 6th November 2009 at 10:59 PM..
My fighter is pretty awesome at actually defending. Come and Get It is an amazing power, since it lets me pull enemies off the squishies and simultaneously marks them.
Come and Get It has been mentioned a few times now. Wouldn't mind hearing more about it. Is it an encounter power? What kind of area does it have?
Moreover, as I mentioned in my OP, the fighter and paladin are easy to end run around once they get locked down by the creature(s) they engaged. Other enemies can maneuver around or just sit back and shoot past them.
I have not seen this at all. I played with a super effective fighter in my first long term 4e campaign. He was an Elven Fighter who specialised in spear and shield. This was before there was a ton of feat support for that, but he, through good power choice and tactical maneuvering, was an almost unstoppable wall. I know this because I was a Str Paladin, and I almost never ended up marking things because his mark was 10x better. I was a Defender in the "Scare them so bad that they need to kill you to sleep at night" type, not the good kind.
In a different campaign I switched roles. I played a fighter who used as many multiattack powers as I could to keep things marked and locked down. A post-DP charisma Paladin in that party was the off-tank, and his mark was very tough to ignore. Again, smart power and feat choice meant that even though I was the flashier tank, his mark was the deadlier and more important, and often his overwrote mine on the deadliest target.
My current campaign has a Swordmage. As far as traditional defending goes, they are kind of out there. Teleportation powers and multiattacks (where each attack does not mark) don't fit the mold of the staid defender, but because we have a mostly ranged and pretty mobile party, he is almost always the ready target, and when he isn't he pops next to the offender and whacks them one.
My experience has shown that good feat and power choice can turn you from an off-striker bag of HP's into a truly difficult challenge for any DM, and that is possible with a wide array of classes. Fighters do this naturally, almost without effort, but a well played Defender is not easily ignored. In your DM's case, I'd advise the defenders to boost the punishment phase of their defendery schtick. Better OA's for the fighter, with riders or extra effects. For the Paladin, powers that Sanction and debuff, as well as taking the necessary feats to keep his radiant retribution relevant.
If the DM continues to ignore the Defenders even after they have done this, all he is doing is killing his creeps faster. A fighter that is allowed to constantly make OA's and other extra attacks can approach striker level damage.
Come and Get It has been mentioned a few times now. Wouldn't mind hearing more about it. Is it an encounter power? What kind of area does it have?
The fighter imc has used this to incredible effect.
I believe it is an encounter power, close burst 3, pull all enemies 2 and then attack 'em all. Good stuff.
I have seen a fighter from 1st to 18th level, as well as a low to mid-paragon level warden and a mid- to high-heroic paladin. The fighter's combat challenge ability to stop enemy movement is, imho, the best defender ability of all.
This is a false dichotomy. The DM's "good reason" is that the effects in question (combat challenge and divine challenge) are inadequate at discouraging the enemies from attacking the squishies.
I simply haven't seen that happen at our low level of play. The fighter was extremely potent when engaged. The paladin's divine challenge damage (5 hp I think) was not insignificant. Bad guys simply can't ignore the effects of the defender. A really good reason, btw, is "the ranger had the unholy relic of our goddess, kill him!" It is not, "the squishies with the low hit points are at the back, ignore the fighter, paladin, and warden and get them!"
In any case, you asked about experience, so that was mine. Apparently, it's also Turtlejay's.
Regarding your end-around, certainly that's possible. But, I wouldn't consider that part of the issue at all. I mean, if the defender can't engage some of the opponents, then why is it his fault he's not defending properly? Sometimes the squishies have to engage as well, and that's typically against enemy artillery or when there are too many skirmishers, brutes, etc. for the defenders to hold off. In other words, that's a non issue.
If the DM continues to ignore the Defenders even after they have done this, all he is doing is killing his creeps faster. A fighter that is allowed to constantly make OA's and other extra attacks can approach striker level damage.
I had not considered this a problem, really. . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infiniti2000
I simply haven't seen that happen at our low level of play. The fighter was extremely potent when engaged. The paladin's divine challenge damage (5 hp I think) was not insignificant. Bad guys simply can't ignore the effects of the defender.
I'm not sure what the deal with all of the incredulity. The fighter's combat challenge can hose the bad guys up, but all it takes is a 4-square wide passage to bypass oppies. Divine challenge is just a weak deterrent (5 points of damage can't be ignored?).
Quote:
A really good reason, btw, is "the ranger had the unholy relic of our goddess, kill him!" It is not, "the squishies with the low hit points are at the back, ignore the fighter, paladin, and warden and get them!"
In any case, you asked about experience, so that was mine. Apparently, it's also Turtlejay's.
Regarding your end-around, certainly that's possible. But, I wouldn't consider that part of the issue at all. I mean, if the defender can't engage some of the opponents, then why is it his fault he's not defending properly? Sometimes the squishies have to engage as well, and that's typically against enemy artillery or when there are too many skirmishers, brutes, etc. for the defenders to hold off. In other words, that's a non issue.
Your tone is kind of defensive. Since this is a thread about defenders, does that qualify as irony? Suffice to say, the definition of a "good reason" is pretty subjective.
And this is not a discussion about "blaming" the defender, but rather finding some strategies to let him excel at his job. Squishies are squishies because absorbing attacks is not their strong suit. If the defenders have some deeper strategies for keeping heat away from them, I'd love to hear how. Dismissing the entire discussion as "moot" and "non-issue" isn't exactly a constructive contribution.
Last edited by Felon; 7th November 2009 at 01:33 AM..
I'm not sure what the deal with all of the incredulity. The fighter's combat challenge can hose the bad guys up, but all it takes is a 4-square wide passage to bypass oppies. Divine challenge is just a weak deterrent (5 points of damage can't be ignored?).
Because that assumes that everyone is standing still. So something takes the extra movement to skirt the fighter. On his next turn, the fighter is right there, marking, and hopefully getting a hit on his OA to keep the enemy there. Granted, a fighter has the strongest mark, so a Paladin can't do that. Instead, the Paladin (Swordmage, Warden, etc) has other tools to compensate. The Paladin's mark goes off whether he hits or misses, so yeah, you can ignore him, but you just got a permanent -2 to attacks and ongoing 5 radiant, no save. Lay hands or other class abilities mitigate any damage (sorry I let him by buddy, heres some HP's) like in the case of the Shielding swordmage where it simply prevents a portion of the damage from ever occuring.
I think the point I am making that is getting lost is this: you can ignore the defenders all you want, but that will only make you die faster.
The thread title is "Defenders that actually defend" and for that you need to look at the whole class, not just the mark. For non-fighter defenders, they have abilities that help them defend *beyond* the mark.
The fighter imc has used this to incredible effect.
I believe it is an encounter power, close burst 3, pull all enemies 2 and then attack 'em all. Good stuff.
I have seen a fighter from 1st to 18th level, as well as a low to mid-paragon level warden and a mid- to high-heroic paladin. The fighter's combat challenge ability to stop enemy movement is, imho, the best defender ability of all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stalker0
Sometimes I think they should have just given this power to the fighter as a 7th level class ability, there is no other power that compares!
I definitely gotta check into this power. Do paladins have an analogue?
Because that assumes that everyone is standing still. So something takes the extra movement to skirt the fighter. On his next turn, the fighter is right there, marking, and hopefully getting a hit on his OA to keep the enemy there.
So, what happens when a soldier engages the tank and they're in mutual lockdown? All the other monsters skirt the tank.
Quote:
The thread title is "Defenders that actually defend" and for that you need to look at the whole class, not just the mark. For non-fighter defenders, they have abilities that help them defend *beyond* the mark.
Well....yeah. Exactly. That's why I'm trying to get past this point where we're talking about combat/divine challenge like they cover all the bases.
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
