So Many Options - Making a 12th levle Paladin

Rechan · 7th November 2009, 02:28 AM

So, I've been invited to join a game that's in Paragon level, and I'm a little overwhelmed by the amount of options, and which are the best.

The Group consists of 4, and the party's defender is leaving. The other players consist of an Infernal Warlock, a Cleric (I believe Wisdom focused - the cleric is a dwarf), and a Ranger (I believe archery). The DM has PHB 1&2, Martial/Arcane power, but is letting me use Divine Power since I own it, there for no grabbing from all sources.

What I'm looking for are some mechanical suggestions. What I want:

Spoiler:

I don't need to be min-maxed out the wazoo, but I want to be competent at my job.

Dan'L · 7th November 2009, 04:02 AM

As you say you are leaning toward a Charisma build, the Half-elf sounds like a good choice. If you're worried about the racial war sub-plot, you could consider that being of both races, he tries to act as a peace-maker to bridge the two communities? In any case, for a Dilettante power, there are several good Charisma-based Weapon attacks in the Bard build -- one that gives a debuff to your enemy, and one that turns him into a source of Temp HP for your allies. Or, you could pick up a ranged (but implement-based) attack from Bard, Sorceror, or Warlock for those times you need to engage your DC'd target but can't quite get there.

Of course, going with Human will give you really nice base defenses. As all the at-wills are essentially v. AC for 1W + some rider, you'll have to consider if the third option would really give you something you'd much use. And starting at Paragon, the extra Feat might not seem like such a big thing.

As either race, you can access Human feats, though, and I'll say this: don't sell short getting bonuses to Saving Throws. As a defender, you'll be targeted a lot, and you'll want all you can get against status effects. And the feats aren't so much redundant as they are upgrades.

Also, for feats check out the Divinity and Domain feats related to your choice of Deity. I know many people swear by the Skill Divinity feat, and that one's available to followers of Ioun.

As far as deities go, are you limited to one of those three, or are they just the most prolific? If you have others available to you, I'd actually recommend taking one of those; chances are that your DM won't have as much of a preconstructed idea of how followers of those need to act in the campaign world, leaving you freer to build your own character's belief system without being pigeon-holed into something that isn't as on-vision for you.

I hope my ramblings are useful!

-Dan'L

Destil · 7th November 2009, 04:05 AM

There's enough good at-wills these days that a human Paladin is a good choice. Especially if you're charisma focused, since you may want Virtuous Strike over Melee Training. Half-elves make good paladins, though, and they have a really great paladin racial feat for a -3 mark.

The big downside of playing a Cha Paladin is your defenses aside from AC and will are going to suck. Bad. Since both your primary and secondary stat pump will... Another plus for the human.

Dilettante you have all kinds of choices these days depending on your build (though the horrid implement rules are a bit of a sticking point if your DM plays strictly by the book), and pretty much every half elf at least looks at taking Versatile Master at 11th. There's a huge number of options here, I started listing them but instead I'll just toss out some ideas:

Radiant Vengeance - Maintain mark at a distance, no implement issues, grants temp HP. You could have a viable semi-ranged build with just this power up your sleeve.
Pressing Strike - You most likely won't be playing a Str half elf, but it could work. Lots of mobility here.
Astral Seal - Another ranged option, this one with a nice healing/debuff aspect.
Mantel of the Infidel - Excellent ranged lock-down potential if you go Wis/Cha. Has implement issues...

As far as feats Honored Foe is fantastic if you have good Wis and work to make monsters not ignore your mark. Persistent Challenge is a real winner if you get stunned for a round or something (not having a mark for two rounds sucks). Finally Contagious Challenge is a winner when you're the only defender in a group (remember, you can have 4 paragon feats at 12th by retraining heroic ones).

segrada · 7th November 2009, 03:38 PM

I'm currently playing a Halfling CHA paladin in a home game that's working out very well. We're right about level 15. Halflings are a race that many people overlook for pretty much everything, but they actually have excellent defender-ish qualities:

- +2 AC vs. opportunity attacks to make running around to engage your Divine Challenge foe less of an issue.
- Second Chance means 1/encounter you can try to avoid the bad guy's big daily, turn a crit into a normal hit or miss, etc
- Racial feat Blessed Scoundrel can let you spend a surge when you use Second Chance, essentially giving you an immediate interrupt second wind
- Racial feat Lost in the Crowd gives +2 AC when you're adjacent to 2 guys larger than you. Since you're small, this is up pretty much all the time. At worst, it negates flanking bonuses, and at best you're up +2AC for the duration.
- +2 to your main attack stat, and bumps to Dex help fortify your normally bad reflex defense
- Flavor! Although halflings may be viewed with distrust in you campaign as a result of petty theft, you could make your character the perfect gentleman, a duelist who's small stature belies a ferocious desire to project others who may be metaphorically stepped on. Consider Avandra as a deity, since your character frequently avoids nasty blows in combat due to sheer blind luck.

One of the only downsides is that you can't use versatile weapons, so you're pretty much stuck using a scimitar or spending a feat to get a rapier.

Morninglord is an interesting PP if you're looking to do a bit more damage - you can take the level 2 utility power Bless Weapon, or simply get a radiant weapon to make all your attacks take advantage of the PP's radiant shenanigans. Plus, a paladin holding aloft a glowing sword is pretty iconic.

Feat wise for any Chaladin, an interesting thing to do is take both Healing Hands and Devoted Paladin. Together these give you 2x your charisma mod when you use Lay on Hands. For added fun, you can take Virtuous Recovery and Touch of Salvation (at paragon); this makes it so when you use Lay on Hands, you grant surge + 2x CHA, gain resist all damage = wisdom mod for a turn, and grant a saving throw with a bonus = charisma mod. All for a minor action!

Turtlejay · 7th November 2009, 05:22 PM

Or a small character can spend a feat for a waraxe (1d12) a craghammer (1d10brutal) or a bastard sword (1d10 +3 prof).

If you are not focused on damage damage damage, then taking a feat for a bigger weapon is not a given. Go with a longsword, or a short sword and heavy shield.

Since the OP did not mention a small race, I'm not sure how helpful that would be. I played a Str Paladin for quite awhile, and didn't really get much into the other side of the class. Paladins are good because:
- Plate proficiency and heavy shield use gives you a pretty sweet AC, and you should take advantage of that
- Lay Hands is a great power, use it on yourself in place of a healing potion as a minor action self heal
- Paladins (Cha Paladins probably even more) have a good leader secondary if you choose to use those powers.
- Paladins have their choice of a few different awesome Paragon Paths. Depending on what you see as your role in the party, you can be an excellent healer, or off-striker, or even improve your mark to near fighter quality.
- A Charisma Paladin should train in at least 1 or two of the social feats. They are class skills for you, and you have the stat for it. Go with one you have a racial synergy with, if possible, like Intimidate for a Dragonborn.

Jay

Destil · 7th November 2009, 06:06 PM

Scimitar is the best for a halfling with military melee. For some reason they didn't put versatile on it, so you can use it one handed...

Rechan · 8th November 2009, 09:11 PM

Yeah, not really interested in Halfling at the moment. It's a good race, but not my style.

As said, I'm heavily leaning towards the Touch of Virtue, as it likely will be more useful in Paragon tier. All those status effects.

Rechan · 10th November 2009, 11:02 PM

Magic items. He said that I can pick items from anywhere. my options are:

levels 13, 12 and 11, and 1000p

So, any suggestions?

If I go Justicar, I should probably get a magical Holy symbol (both PP class powers are Implement). But I am leaning towards a magical Shield or boots or something of use. Hmf.

keterys · 10th November 2009, 11:05 PM

Take a level 13 Bradaman's Weapon - perfect for paladins, counts as both a holy symbol and weapon and lets you double challenge.

Saeviomagy · 10th November 2009, 11:07 PM

Don't discount hospitaler. That healing-mark power makes them very sticky defenders.

tiornys · 11th November 2009, 11:38 AM

One way to reduce the options is to add some restrictions. You mentioned a desire to be Lancelot-ish, and your discussion of the Justiciar suggests a desire to avoid implement powers. If I were to build a Chaladin that avoided implement powers for a party with excellent healing, it would look something like this:

Spoiler:

The weakest point of this build is the lack of ranged options. It's taken a couple of things to help increase its mobility. The equipment is PHB1/2 only.

However, Chaladins do get access to some great implement powers, and the Lancelot flavor doesn't rule them out completely. If I were to go Justiciar, I'd instead look something like this:

Spoiler:

The second build really wishes it had access to the AV/AV2, for access to weapons that count as holy symbols.

t~

Rechan · 13th November 2009, 04:58 AM

The DM gave the normal allowance of magical items for me from AV1/2, so I'll definitely be throwing out for a sword/holy symbol. It's interesting that I picked many powers that you did, tiornys. Thanks for the suggestions.

I'm still debating over some feats and utilities.

But I am resisting the urge to really optimize. I'm going for a mix.

tiornys · 13th November 2009, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rechan

But I am resisting the urge to really optimize. I'm going for a mix.

Don't resist the urge to optimize; channel it. Figure out the character or at least a theme, and then optimize within the bounds of that character or theme. That will organically avoid extreme optimization while allowing you to feel less like you're fighting yourself.

t~

edit: also, the only utility I think is a must, and only if you go Justiciar, is Call of Challenge, because it's awesome in combination with Just Radiance.

Rechan · 16th November 2009, 06:37 AM

I finally did my character:

Spoiler:

Now, I might make adjustments, retrain a few things. We'll see how it works out.

keterys · 16th November 2009, 06:55 AM

Fwiw, Ardent Strike is pretty awesome. I love being able to do things like divine challenge one guy and ardent strike the guy next to him. Poof, two guys challenged.

Especially with honored foe.

NMcCoy · 16th November 2009, 08:47 AM

I've actually just recently built a level 12 half-elf Chaladin; haven't had a chance to play him yet, and he doesn't quite fit thematically with your goals, but maybe worth a look?

Spoiler: