D&D 4th Edition RulesAsk questions about 4th-Edition rules and the like in here. General discussion about 4E or any other game belongs in General RPG Discussion, above.
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1) Does the dagger's proficiency bonus count towards the melee attack?
2) Does dual implement caster's bonus apply to the melee attack?
3) If using Acid Orb, which counts as a ranged basic attack, does that mean when used with a dagger it counts as a melee basic attack?
I know the answers are probably obvious, but as I'm building a sorcerer for a game coming up, I want to be able to point to this thread should there be any confusion over ability
1) Does the dagger's proficiency bonus count towards the melee attack?
No. No more than sword proficiency would help for a Swordmage's non-weapon attacks (ie: implement). You get the implement bonus, tho. Keep in mind these are attacks not against AC, so you don't need the proficiency bonus to make up for the gap.
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2) Does dual implement caster's bonus apply to the melee attack?
um, do you have two implements? I don't see why not. You're delivering it as a melee attack, so it's more like an issue of range. Granted, I'm playing a sorcerer so I'm hoping I can have a second implement work for my melee build!
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3) If using Acid Orb, which counts as a ranged basic attack, does that mean when used with a dagger it counts as a melee basic attack?
There's another feat that lets you do exactly that (I think it's reaper's touch, or something) so I'd guess not. Otherwise, what's the point of that feat? ...good question!
Build: I'm going wildmage for now, eventually MC Rogue/Daggermaster. I recommend human, for the bonus at-will, but Drow or Halfling aren't bad options either; in fact, drow racials are handy, and halflings have the re-roll thing. My Genasi will have a lot of resistances, but might not stack.
Another option is a Dragonborn Dragon Sorcerer, using the Dragonborn racial PP where you can fly. If you're going melee anyway, you can do worse than a high Str mod (athletics), plus a breath weapon; Con is a good thrid stat, I suppose, which plays off breath weapon damage. You're basically a tiny dragon at that point. Get Intimidate, and you've kinda got Dragonfear, right?
Still, wildmage and storm-mage-whatever, having Dex as the second stat, can go Con, Dex, Cha and have their defenses covered, plus a good AC stat.
Arcane Spellfury is great with AoE at-will (flame burst or something) and follow up with the Lightning at-will to shift into melee and hit, then move action out of melee. The Radiant AoE at-will is good, too.
There are some guide books in the WOTC charOp boards; while I don't agree on every suggestion (D&D is complex and situational, so putting all your eggs into one build-basket with not regard for that is still crazy).
No. No more than sword proficiency would help for a Swordmage's non-weapon attacks (ie: implement). You get the implement bonus, tho. Keep in mind these are attacks not against AC, so you don't need the proficiency bonus to make up for the gap.
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um, do you have two implements? I don't see why not. You're delivering it as a melee attack, so it's more like an issue of range. Granted, I'm playing a sorcerer so I'm hoping I can have a second implement work for my melee build!
These two contradict each other.
Also, by using Sorcerous Blade Channelling, the feat specifically states that the attack is changed to a melee attack, thereby it should get the melee attack proficiency bonus. Otherwise, what then is the point of the feat? Making a ranged attack into a melee attack is a negative, not a positive. The only justification for it (aside from daggermaster cheese, which shouldn't be taken into consideration because the feat isn't specifically built to allow such, it's just a coincidence) is to gain the proficiency bonus to the attack.
And Reaper's Touch is a race-specific feat which doesn't discount other feats allowing the same thing through synergistic mechanics.
Making a ranged attack into a melee attack is a negative, not a positive.
Not particularly. At least one reason to do this would be so you can engage a foe in melee range without provoking opportunity attacks. That versatility is a plus, whether or not it counts as a melee basic attack.
You don't get the proficiency bonus, because you never do on implement powers, only on weapon powers (powers with the weapon keyword).
Edit to add:
If you are wielding two implements, then you will get the dual implement bonus. (Presumably, this could be a dagger in each hand, but you could use any other implement with which you are proficient for the off-hand implement and still benefit from the dual implement feat.)
I don't think that the intent was to make spells like acid orb into melee basic attacks, but it could go either way, for me. It doesn't explicitly state that it does, but then you end up with the potential for a (formerly ranged) basic attack that has a melee range. I could definitely see the argument for it counting as a melee basic attack. Then again, I can also see the argument against it.
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Last edited by nogray; 20th November 2009 at 05:45 AM..
Reason: Add some stuff
Not particularly. At least one reason to do this would be so you can engage a foe in melee range without provoking opportunity attacks. That versatility is a plus, whether or not it counts as a melee basic attack.
That's more of a consequence than a bonus. It's pretty rare that a caster can't just shift out of melee range.
That's more of a consequence than a bonus. It's pretty rare that a caster can't just shift out of melee range.
he also happens to be correct you will only get the proficiency bonus if it is a weapon keyword attack. range has nothing to do with it ergo you dont lose the bonus while throwing a dagger or using a bow/crossbow. the proficiency bonus is their because in most cases ac will be a few points ahead of fort/ref/will. also shifting to avoid an opportunity attack is not always an option depending on the roles of the monsters you fight and if you are being attacked more than 2 monsters with decent mobilty you can be in a tough spot. in rare cases a leader power might specify the extra action has to me melee so another reason reapers touch can be practical.
he also happens to be correct you will only get the proficiency bonus if it is a weapon keyword attack.
The power doesn't have the keyword because it doesn't need to. The feat is the exception that changes the rule. It changes the power into a weapon-based attack that requires a dagger.
The power doesn't have the keyword because it doesn't need to. The feat is the exception that changes the rule. It changes the power into a weapon-based attack that requires a dagger.
Er, don't know where you are getting that from. The only keyword that changes is Ranged to Melee, it doesn't change into a weapon attack all of a sudden.
"When you use any ranged sorcerer attack power through a dagger, you can use the power as a melee attack. If you do so, the power’s range equals your melee reach."
Its still implement only, akin to a druid's melee powers in wildshape. The only advantage you get now is you can use things that require melee attacks to trigger, such as two-weapon fighting, power attack, bloodclaw weaponary etc. These only require 'melee' attacks and not 'weapon' therefore you can gain the bonuses still. Whereas proficiency isn't added on in the process since it still isn't a 'weapon' attack.
Also for ranged basic attack as AoO, I don't see why you couldn't use it if the enemy provokes, after all sorceror's blade channeling has now turned it into a melee attack with a melee reach therefore you can use it as a AoO. Reaper's touch still has a use since it works for more than sorcerors (Shadar-Kai; invoker, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard class are the prereqs for the feat).
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Sorcerous Blade Channelling
1) Does the dagger's proficiency bonus count towards the melee attack?
Any sorcerer power with the weapon keyword would gain the dagger's proficiency bonus. No other sorcerer powers ould gain this bonus. Note, that this is the case without the feat. Note also that no sorcerer powers have the weapon keyword and this feat does not add the weapon keyword to the powers it affects.
2) Does dual implement caster's bonus apply to the melee attack?
Yes provided the power is an implement power; dual implement caster applies to implement powers. Note that essentially all sorcerer powers have the implement keyword (those that have no benefit that can be gained from an implement are the obvious exceptions).
3) If using Acid Orb, which counts as a ranged basic attack, does that mean when used with a dagger it counts as a melee basic attack?
This is tricky. RAW the fact that this power is a basic attack is not part of the range; it is a special feature of the power. That means that it becomes a melee 1 power that can also be used as a ranged basic attack. Logically, because the power is a ranged basic attack and the power is being changed to a melee attack then the power is now a melee basic attack but this is not explicitly called out in the rules.
I would rule that yes it changes but YMMV.
There is a real advantage to Acid Orb becoming a MBA instead of just a MA. Only basic attacks can be used bor OA and Interrupts so the sorcerer would gain the ability to make an OA with Acid Orb. Also, Commander's Strike would be able to trigger this power. Given that sorcerers are not well geared for melee, moving in so close is probably not in the sorcerer's best interest however.
DC
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3) If using Acid Orb, which counts as a ranged basic attack, does that mean when used with a dagger it counts as a melee basic attack?
This is tricky. RAW the fact that this power is a basic attack is not part of the range; it is a special feature of the power. That means that it becomes a melee 1 power that can also be used as a ranged basic attack. Logically, because the power is a ranged basic attack and the power is being changed to a melee attack then the power is now a melee basic attack but this is not explicitly called out in the rules.
I would rule that yes it changes but YMMV.
There is a real advantage to Acid Orb becoming a MBA instead of just a MA. Only basic attacks can be used bor OA and Interrupts so the sorcerer would gain the ability to make an OA with Acid Orb. Also, Commander's Strike would be able to trigger this power. Given that sorcerers are not well geared for melee, moving in so close is probably not in the sorcerer's best interest however.
DC
By a strict reading of the rules, it would actually be a ranged basic attack that can be used as a melee attack.
Meaning that it could be used whenever you are allowed a ranged basic or basic attack, but not when you are granted a melee basic attack. Despite not being a melee basic per se, you could use it as a melee attack whenever you are granted a ranged basic or basic attack (in order to avoid granting opportunity attacks).
I took Sorcerous Blade Channeling for my sorcerer and found it quite useful for those instances where I was cornered or flanked, and therefore couldn't shift anywhere that wouldn't still provoke OAs. IMO, that's the purpose the feat is intended for, nothing more.
That's more of a consequence than a bonus. It's pretty rare that a caster can't just shift out of melee range.
You're kidding right? Either that or you're subject to soft DMing or playing with three defenders and two leaders.
Spellchuckers will occasionally get pinned down.
Sometimes the spellchuckers need to step up and take some damage. They have surges and hit points for a reason. It's poor resource management to expect certain characters to take basically all the damage. In difficult encounters/days this simply doesn't work. Even if they have the surges to spend there may not be enough triggers so spreading teh damage is imperitive to party survival, let alone success.
Also, being able to set up a credible flank can be quite useful instead of in name only.
There is a big advantage to the party when the defender can flank with for instance the sorcerer. +2 to hit to two characters is REALLY good. One extra way of getting flanking and CA is very valuable.
As a sorcerer I would probably keep out of melee range to begin with and move into flanking in round two or three. I would maybe go for using the Close Blast 3 attack early on as well, either way ending in melee range very quickly.
Also, by using Sorcerous Blade Channelling, the feat specifically states that the attack is changed to a melee attack, thereby it should get the melee attack proficiency bonus. Otherwise, what then is the point of the feat? Making a ranged attack into a melee attack is a negative, not a positive. The only justification for it (aside from daggermaster cheese, which shouldn't be taken into consideration because the feat isn't specifically built to allow such, it's just a coincidence) is to gain the proficiency bonus to the attack.
And Reaper's Touch is a race-specific feat which doesn't discount other feats allowing the same thing through synergistic mechanics.
No and No. Also: No!
Sorcerous blade channelling, I believe, says nothing about changing the attack to affect AC. It says nothing about adding proficiency bonus because it doesn't change the attack to a weapon attack from implement. It only says that the attack is now a melee attack.
Daggermaster works perfectly well: it says you increase attacks with a dagger. If you want to call customer service and get a ruling on that, fine; however, I wouldn't add on what isn't there.
Keep in mind you can use magical dagger properties on your sorcerer spells, even if they're made for weapon attacks: a flaming dagger will add fire damage on a crit,t hat sort of thing.
Reaper's Touch: Ah-ha, no: the article doesn't have Shadar-Kai as a pre-req, ergo it's not a racial feat. Same way my Eladrin Swordmage can take the Fey Death feat, despite it being in an article on assassins (granted, pre-PH3 class).
By a strict reading of the rules, it would actually be a ranged basic attack that can be used as a melee attack.
Meaning that it could be used whenever you are allowed a ranged basic or basic attack, but not when you are granted a melee basic attack. Despite not being a melee basic per se, you could use it as a melee attack whenever you are granted a ranged basic or basic attack (in order to avoid granting opportunity attacks).
This is where the rules get funny, y'know? But I agree with this; though, if it's changing ranged to melee, I think the OP kinda makes sense in saying that Acid Orb is now a MBA.
I think a sorcerer is a great melee character *if* they get Leather, and have a healer standing, like, right next to them. Keep in mind that, with Rogue MC, Daggermaster (or even just a jagged dagger), the lightning at-will means you can run in and out of melee, flanking with every shot. Then you're out of melee, technically.
The parrallel here is back in 3e how there were touch-attacks: ranged touch attacks and melee touch attacks. Basically the feat in question lets you change the ranged touch attacks into melee ones. That is why you don't get the weapon proficiency bonus.
On the other hand, you're not going after AC, so you don't need it.
The power doesn't have the keyword because it doesn't need to. The feat is the exception that changes the rule. It changes the power into a weapon-based attack that requires a dagger.
also incorrect show me where it states it becomes a weapon attack. it doesn't all it does is effect the range aka allowing you to use it in melee without provoking attacks. daggers in many cases are used as implements. this does not mean any powers were a dagger is applicable as an implement magically transforms into a weapon attack.
daggers in many cases are used as implements. this does not mean any powers were a dagger is applicable as an implement magically transforms into a weapon attack.
the feat doesnt do that it says nowhere it gains the weapon keyword. you might as well give daggers brutal 3 with the feat because you think its appropriate. if the feat dosn't say specifically it gains the keyword "weapon" it will not gain the proficiency bonus.
If you read what the feat says, the only thing it does is change ranged sorcerer attacks into melee attacks.
It makes it so that you can utilize your sorcerer spells in melee range without incurring OAs. It also has the secondary benefit that you can take advantage of feats and such that are restricted to melee attacks (Power Attack).
Melee attacks are not the same as weapon attacks. Weapon attacks get the proficiency bonus. Melee attacks don't (unless they're also weapon attacks). Sorcerer attacks using Sorcerous Blade Channeling are melee implement attacks, not melee weapon attacks, and therefore do not benefit from the proficiency bonus.
If the feat was intended to change ranged sorcerer attacks into weapon attacks, it would say so. It does not.
To put it another way, if SBC did turn sorcerer spells into weapon attacks, it would grant +3 to hit and therefore be equivalent to epic Expertise (but available at Heroic tier). That's quite clearly both absurd and broken.
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