tough DM strategies (heroic tier)

[fireinthedust]

So I have a game tomorrow. The PCs are (for some reason) going into a town where Hobgoblins are the town guards now (read it in my Sig's ongoing 4e game, if you want details). Basically they're going to try to get around town with opportunities to fight Hobgoblins; as well as Undead (skeletons, zombies, ghosts) in the sewers.


I have to admit: my DM tactics need work.

1) How do I make the PCs work to survive in the combat?

2) What are time-honored things that will really screw the PCs up? Like, spellcasters on platforms, or archers in second story windows, that sort of thing.


One combat I played in had a Goblin Hexer standing on a platform nailing us with spells while other goblins cut us to pieces. When I run them, goblins get mowed over.

[Max1mus]

Could you tell us what approximate level your group is?

[lexoanvil]

ive always found that if you adjust terrain enough to the favor of what your fighting even lv appropriate encounters are hard. as for hobgoblins? i would recomend this for an encounter.
2x very high ac phalanx warrior types
1x skirmisher in the back
1x leader type
the rest artillery.
make the terrain very narrow aka only to spaces wide for the 2 defenders to block while the artillery punishes them in relative safety. the skirmisher is there for when eventually a pc finds a way past them.the right terrain can make or break the difficulty of a fight.

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edit i tryed to make a diagram of a room example but failed.

[lexoanvil]

also party info(classes and levels) would be very helpful.

[lexoanvil]

if they are at least lv 2 this should be ok for the terrain i recommended
-hobgoblin commander
-hobgoblin soldier
-hobgoblin warcaster
-hobgoblin archer
-hobgoblin mercenary
775 exp total

if they are lv 3 or 4 add 1-3 additional archers

[Blackbrrd]

I would go for multiple warcasters. The daze attack really ruins the fighters day. BAM! dazed, so no OA or Immediate actions, one shift away and he is out of luck without quickdraw for a round. The hobgoblin soldier is pretty descent as well, with very high AC.

Make two pairs of Hobgoblin Warcaster/Soldier and add three Goblin sharpshooters archers at long range (20 squares) for some really tough decisions for the party.

The two pairs should try to keep some distance from each other, while the two sharpshooters should go for the dazed targets. (They probably start with in hiding, so should get 2d6+4 damage at least the 2-3 first rounds.)

[lexoanvil]

Originally Posted by Blackbrrd

I would go for multiple warcasters. The daze attack really ruins the fighters day. BAM! dazed, so no OA or Immediate actions, one shift away and he is out of luck without quickdraw for a round. The hobgoblin soldier is pretty descent as well, with very high AC.

Make two pairs of Hobgoblin Warcaster/Soldier and add three Goblin sharpshooters archers at long range (20 squares) for some really tough decisions for the party.

The two pairs should try to keep some distance from each other, while the two sharpshooters should go for the dazed targets. (They probably start with in hiding, so should get 2d6+4 damage at least the 2-3 first rounds.)

yea warcasters are great but their only ranged attack is re-charge so doubling up on them seems to not fit the terrain i provided but goblin sharp shooters would be nice if you want to barrage them.

black i like your idea what do you think ideal terrain would be for this? maybe some rough terrain in front of the sharpshooters?

[lexoanvil]

also i feel hobgoblins are not quite hobgoblins without a hobgoblin commander in the fray they are great at turning the most ragtag group of goblins into a fighting force to be feared.

[Blackbrrd]

I would use the warcaster at melee range with his Shock Staff and Force pulse. The point of the warcasters is the Shock Staff that dazes (gives CA to the sharpshooters), the Force pulse that knocks prone (once again gives CA to the sharpshooters). The sharpshooters should always shoot at something giving CA.

Getting first hit for 2d10+4 damage from the shock staff and dazed, then getting 2x 2d6+4 damage from the sharpshooters is downright scary.

I would

[fireinthedust]

Classes and Level:

Level 4 party, though I've been a bit generous with items and such. I built most of the PCs myself, and on top of that they found a Deck of Many Things (including several wishes and magic items).

Dragonborn Paladin
Goliath Barbarian
Human Cleric
Half-elf Feylock

plus two others who have to make their characters tomorrow.

EDIT: one of them will be a level 4 Swordmage Eladrin I need to level up from my pregen collection.

[lexoanvil]

i think this could be interesteing
-hobgoblin commander(leader soldier)
-hobgoblin soldier(soldier)
-2xhobgoblin warcaster(leader controler)
-2xhobgoblin archer(artillery)
-4xhobgoblin grunts (minion)
-hobgoblin dirge stinger (leader controller)
i think given you pcs number a terrain such as this might be in order

= normal
X raised platform
+ladder/stairs
& difficult terrain
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[eamon]

A lot here has focused on monster group composition; so let's see if I can add a few tactical considerations.

(1) It's my impression that monster roles are more varied than PC roles. What this means? The PC's ability to kill your artillery or lock down your big damage dealer matters more than your ability to do the same to them. If you want to annoy them, therefore, have a few low level soldiers mark their defenders, preferably keeping them away from the fray. This is particularly effective against low-damage defenders, since it can take them a long time to actually kill the soldiers.

In short, include marking soldiers and make sure they loosen up combat; keep it spread out to avoid them easily focusing one by one on the enemies.

(2) Now, most barbarians are chargers. To charge; you need to move. What you want, is a readied action: as soon as he moves; you do XYZ where XYZ slows him, drop him prone, etc. This can really ruin his day. Of course, for that to work, you need to hit, and it's probably gotta be a ranged attack; so getting this to work is much much easier if you're not swarmed by defenders, see (1). To keep it fair, I would only do this if the guards have a reasonable way of expecting the PC to do much charging - say on the second combat of the day. To up the tension, you can interject some barked commands or communication between the hobgoblins. If one of em shouts "I'll cover the runner!" and then says "runner down" when he trips the barbarian, they'll know they're dealing with smart opponents, which is always extra scary ;-).

(3)Warlocks need to move to avoid being very fragile. Anything you do to limit that movement will be nasty - slow, in particular, makes it hard for them to move more than 2 squares, which makes getting their concealment tricky.

(4)In general, focus fire works well (excepting above tactics; so it's ok to lock down the defenders with separate soldiers!). You can have more creatures on the battlefield than there are PC's, and that's a good idea anyhow since higher level creatures quickly turn into a hard, slow, untactical slog (on a similar note, don't use too many soldiers - they may be strong, but they can make the game boring and unfun!). That means you can have a few creatures covering specific PC's to annoy them, and most of the rest focusing fire on particuarly vulnerable enemies. If you want to deplete their healing resources quickly, focus on low-hp low-AC characters first; these will require more healing per attack from you. That's probably the cleric or the warlock.

(5)Anybody particularly dependent on minor actions will hate to be dazed. If you can't lock down the defenders, that's probably the paladin and the swordmage. Particularly, if the paladin can't engage, he get's penalized, so that's nasty. On the other hand, it's even better if you can just lock em down with soldiers, so I think an actually juicier target is the cleric (for dazing). The reason for that is than in any somewhat challenging battle he'll need to heal somebody, and if he does, he needs minor actions to do so. There are few as critical minor actions as healing. If someone is sustaining a nasty power, that's another obvious target. People that like charging don't care as much about daze; so in any case prefer targets without a good melee basic attack and that have someone next to them to take OA's if they try anything ranged.

(6)In addition, there's obvious stuff like using the terrain to the monster's advantage (i.e., put artillery in hard to reach places, give em cover and have em spread out so it's hard to get several of them locked down with a single defender.) You can overdo this kind of stuff too though; it should stay believable and reasonable, IMHO - if the archers don't have a believable reason to be holed up in a fortress, they shouldn't be.

[Eric Finley]

The other thing I'd note is that playing to the monsters' personalities can both make things surprisingly more challenging, and also more interesting. With hobgoblins, for example, treat them as (a) reasonably disciplined soldiers, overlaying (b) a fundamentally cowardly and selfish predisposition.

So, for example, playing dead is a cowardly and selfish trick which can work wonders against a group that isn't expecting it. Such a simple trick, but it can totally turn a cakewalk into a challenge instantly - use it on a lurker of some kind who comes out of playing possum and into stealth, for example. Call for a free perception check to even notice that the corpse is gone - but then give it to them unless they all roll horribly, because you want the players nervous and making poor tactical calls because of it.

Second example, have the PCs show up and have whoever's in charge immediately order a runt-looking hob to get help... "Intruders! Ogu, go get Dabov's squad; everybody else, hold them!" Then the hobs hole up in a defensive mode, rather than just trying to slaughter the PCs. This forces their choices - rather than just a stand-up fight, they either (a) catch Ogu and prevent him from running for help [and if you really want to make things nasty, use 'play dead' with Ogu!], or (b) realize that if they do not finish the fight fast, there will be reinforcements showing up.

[Rechan]

A few things.

1) I don't know if your cleric is the hit-them-in-the-face type, or the shoot-them-with-my-holysymbol type. But this definitely applies to the Warlock: Don't let him hang back and shoot from afar. Have a nice soldier charge him and mark him.

Place a lurker in the battle, and have the lurker sit and wait. Most lurkers can hang around unnoticed until they decide to jump out. So have that lurker move into position to shank the warlock. Or, have the lurker jump out when someone gets bloodied, so the Lurker can turn someone from 'dang I'm bloodied' to 'OH CRAP GET ME OUT OF HERE.'

2) If you want your PCs to move, then have your enemies move. With enemies like Hobgoblins, they could fall back to a trap, herding the PCs into position by way of retreat.

(2) Now, most barbarians are chargers. To charge; you need to move. What you want, is a readied action: as soon as he moves; you do XYZ where XYZ slows him, drop him prone, etc. This can really ruin his day.

This can also come into play with terrain.

You need a relative straight shot to charge. So if there are lots of fat pillars or benches or tables in your way, you can't just run over them, you have to run around them, which is going to eat your movement rate. So a lot of terrain in the way will cut the flow of those charges. Hell, you could even have enemies make impromptu barricades - pushing two tables together to block an obvious charge route.

Same could be said for a second floor that's in pieces - ledges, walkways, etc - so in order to charge, you have to do some jumping. The barb shouldnt' be afraid of that, but there is the risk of falling - especially if someone shoots him mid-air.

[Rechan]

Another trick:

When a monster is subject to an effect (like say, a mark), the monster understands the circumstances of that mark (if I don't attack the paladin, I get zapped by holy power).

What you can do is have the enemy the paladin has marked run away, hide, or get into a better position for next round (across the board, flanking someone else). The Paladin has to either 1) attack the enemy at range, 2) chase the enemy to be adjacent to him, or 3) challenge a new foe. He has to at least do 1 or 2 the round he challenges.

If it's 1, then the paladin is using a weak attack. If it's 2, the paladin is likely being pulled away from the group. If it's 3, then the first enemy can charge back in and attack whoever he wants as soon as the pally switches targets.