Healing Word

[Hypersmurf]

Originally Posted by Colmarr

Wasn't it you who was arguing that using Nimble Strike (I hope that's the right name - the ranger encounter 1 that lets you shift before attacking) provokes OAs because it is a "Ranged" power?

Absolutely. When you use the Ranged Power, you are adjacent. Then you shift 1, and make a Ranged Attack. The Shift occurs before the attack, but not before the use of the power.

That wasn't the most recent argument along those lines, though - the more recent was whether a power like Deft Strike with a melee weapon can be used if there is no target within the range (melee weapon) of the power when you use it.

I was more specifically interested in examples of ranged attacks that weren't a power.

In the Cut and Run example, it depends if you distinguish between "a ranged attack which is a power" and "a ranged attack which is made as part of the resolution of a power".

The ranged attack I make in square A is not the Cut and Run power, but it is the Cut and Run power that permits me to make the ranged attack in square A.

-Hyp.

[Colmarr]

I was mostly interested in attacks that were unconnected to powers at all.

There are IMO too many powers that feature "do X and attack" or "attack and do X" for a meaningful distinction to be drawn between attacks that are powers and attacks that are part of powers.

As I recently said to a friend about the Nimble Strike argument, "It's a valid RAW argument, and therefore one of the prime examples of why you sometimes have to say "Screw the RAW".

[DracoSuave]

Well, 'using a power' is a specific sort of action, and occurs when and while you take that action.

So, in Hypersmurf's example, you are using the Nimble Attack power at all points during that, as you are still using the 'Use a Power' action. However, if said power includes shifts and such, those shifts and such -explicitly- deny the interruption via opportunity actions during those shifts.

Hmmm. Ranged attack that isn't using a ranged power.

Flaming Sphere comes to mind immediately off the top of my head. The Sustain entry is not part of the Using a Power action, and Sustaining is not an action that provokes. However, it includes a ranged attack, and therefore provokes via -that- mechanism.

There are others, but this example is a -very- common one.

(Yes, it does involve a ranged power, but it does not involve the Use a Power action, which is what is important to realise here)

[Infiniti2000]

Originally Posted by Hypersmurf

Absolutely. When you use the Ranged Power, you are adjacent. Then you shift 1, and make a Ranged Attack. The Shift occurs before the attack, but not before the use of the power.

So, does the power explain what is meant by a shift? Where are the rules on shifting? Now, once you look those up, which rules on provoking takes precedence during the shift?

I'd only agree with you if the power were complete in its description. But, it's not so we have to take all the details in context. I don't think the "ranged" keyword overrides the shift. It's certainly not the RAI, as is obvious from the design/inclusion of many such ranged powers.

[eamon]

Originally Posted by Infiniti2000

So, does the power explain what is meant by a shift? Where are the rules on shifting? Now, once you look those up, which rules on provoking takes precedence during the shift?

I'd only agree with you if the power were complete in its description. But, it's not so we have to take all the details in context. I don't think the "ranged" keyword overrides the shift. It's certainly not the RAI, as is obvious from the design/inclusion of many such ranged powers.

Given the discussion in the Iron Armbands thread, I feel the need to point out that the only reason it's possible to make this kind of common sense ruling is because shifting and the powers in question have a clear intent/fluff - which is valuable in enabling differentiation between reasonable rule interactions and unreasonable interactions.

[Hypersmurf]

Originally Posted by DracoSuave

So, in Hypersmurf's example, you are using the Nimble Attack power at all points during that, as you are still using the 'Use a Power' action. However, if said power includes shifts and such, those shifts and such -explicitly- deny the interruption via opportunity actions during those shifts.

Let's say we have a power that lets me make a ranged attack, move two squares, and make another ranged attack. (I'm sure there probably is one, but I can't be bothered hunting for it right now )

And let's say I'm within the threatening reach of a Boneclaw, with its Relentless Opportunist ability allowing it to make multiple OAs in a single turn.

The first attack provokes, and leaving the first square provokes, and leaving the second square provokes, and the second ranged attack provokes, right?

Now let's say the power swaps the move for a 2-square shift.

The first attack provokes, and leaving the first square doesn't provoke, and leaving the second square doesn't provoke, and the second ranged attack provokes, right?

So even though shifts don't provoke OAs, I still provoked OAs with ranged attacks as part of that power.

Now, in the Nimble Attack example, I use a ranged power in a square adjacent to an enemy, and I shift out of that square, and I make a ranged attack. The shift does not provoke. But using a ranged power in a square adjacent to an enemy does. And if I'm threatened by the time I make the ranged attack, making a ranged attack does as well.

Even though the shift doesn't provoke, that doesn't change the other ways in which Nimble Attack provokes OAs. And one of the ways Nimble Attack can provoke an OA, since it's a ranged power, is if it is used in a square adjacent to an enemy.

-Hyp.

[Infiniti2000]

Good clarification, Hyp, and good point.

[NMcCoy]

The first attack provokes, and leaving the first square provokes, and leaving the second square provokes, and the second ranged attack provokes, right?

One error in your math, Hypersmurf: By your reasoning, the monster should actually get five attacks, not four. One for using the ranged power within its reach, then others for making the attacks and moving. Similarly, by this argument a ranged basic attack provokes two OAs from this monster.

[holywhitetrash]

Originally Posted by NMcCoy

One error in your math, Hypersmurf: By your reasoning, the monster should actually get five attacks, not four. One for using the ranged power within its reach, then others for making the attacks and moving. Similarly, by this argument a ranged basic attack provokes two OAs from this monster.

activating a power that uses ranged attacks doesn't provoke. the attack themselves are what provkes

[Colmarr]

Originally Posted by Infiniti2000

Good clarification, Hyp, and good point.

Good clarification, yes, but good point? Maybe

Originally Posted by holywhitetrash

activating a power that uses ranged attacks doesn't provoke. the attack themselves are what provkes

Actually, that is exactly what Hypersmurf is disputing. He claims (and is supported at least in part by RAW) that activating a ranged power provokes OAs, even if the actions taken during that power do not. Hence, activating Nimble Strike when adjacent to an enemy provokes an OA, even though the first action you take is to shift out of range...

[holywhitetrash]

Originally Posted by Colmarr

Good clarification, yes, but good point? Maybe



Actually, that is exactly what Hypersmurf is disputing. He claims (and is supported at least in part by RAW) that activating a ranged power provokes OAs, even if the actions taken during that power do not. Hence, activating Nimble Strike when adjacent to an enemy provokes an OA, even though the first action you take is to shift out of range...

OPPORTUNITY ACTION
✦ Trigger: Opportunity actions allow you to take an
action in response to an enemy letting its guard
down. The one type of opportunity action that every
combatant can take is an opportunity attack (page
290). Opportunity attacks are triggered by an enemy
leaving a square adjacent to you or by an adjacent
enemy making a ranged attack or an area attack.
so straight from the book
activating a power that uses ranged attacks doesn't provoke. the attack themselves are what provokes

[Starfox]

Originally Posted by Colmarr

He [Hypersmurf] claims (and is supported at least in part by RAW) that activating a ranged power provokes OAs, even if the actions taken during that power do not. Hence, activating Nimble Strike when adjacent to an enemy provokes an OA, even though the first action you take is to shift out of range...

Which would make all scoot n' shoot powers pointless.

A clear case of RAI vs. RAW to me.

[Hypersmurf]

Originally Posted by holywhitetrash

so straight from the book
activating a power that uses ranged attacks doesn't provoke. the attack themselves are what provokes

You're quoting PHB p268, but that's not the only relevant page.

PHB p271:
Provoke Opportunity Attacks: If you use a ranged power while adjacent to an enemy, that enemy can make an opportunity attack against you.

PHB p271:
Provoke Opportunity Attacks: If you use an area power while adjacent to an enemy, that enemy can make an opportunity attack against you.

PHB p290 (the page referenced in the paragraph you quoted!):
Ranged and Area Powers Provoke: If an enemy adjacent to you uses a ranged power or an area power, you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy.

So from p268, we know that ranged attacks provoke, and from pp271 and 290, we also know that using a ranged power provokes.

Originally Posted by NMcCoy

One error in your math, Hypersmurf: By your reasoning, the monster should actually get five attacks, not four. One for using the ranged power within its reach, then others for making the attacks and moving. Similarly, by this argument a ranged basic attack provokes two OAs from this monster.

Right - not so much an error as easing into that part If you open with that argument, it's more likely to be dismissed out of hand than if you come back to it!

Now, given that very few monsters can make more than one OA per turn, the RBA provoking twice comes up far less often than Nimble Attack provoking before the shift might.

-Hyp.

[Rel]

Wouldn't a Basic Ranged Attack be an example of a non-Power situation that would provoke OA's?

[ValhallaGH]

Nope. Basic Attacks (melee and ranged) are at-will powers that all creatures have. They even have power blocks in the PH1.