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You do realize I'm as unhappy as everyone else is, right?
Let us outline a successful campaign sourcebook, so we can see how pitifully far away from completion we are.
Preface--An introduction saying what the book is, and why we wrote it.
Chapter One: The People of Daemonforge--After all, players are most interested in who they can play, and where they can go, so lets start with the basic descriptions of races, crossbreeding, and societies. Include a glimpse at each of the main realms, but leave the details for later chapters. This will include all pertinent information for PCs, including prestige classes, notes on what spells and magic work differently, and racial creation rules. Plus templates for spirits and various types of bizarre characters, like those who have their souls bound to golems.
Chapter Two: Daemonforge History--Have a concise timeline first, and then elaborate on the various periods and events. No more than 10 pages.
____Region chapters____ The Kessel, The Shattered Isles, The Fingers of Darkness, The Broken Lands (God, we have cool-sounding regions). Each overall region should have it's own chapter, and a map of the area. No more than 5 pages per sub-region. Provide the feel for each area, but don't feel compelled to detail everything. Include stats for any important individuals in statblock format, with perhaps sidebars devoted to Patrons (alternately, patrons and fiendlords could get their own chapter, or be put into chapters 8 or 9). Each location should not just have description of the areas, but be rife with possible adventure ideas. We should probably also include suggestions for common monsters and racial make-ups in specific areas.
Chapter Three: The Kessel
Chapter Four: The Shattered Isles
Chapter Five: The Fingers of Darkness
Chapter Six: The Broken Lands
Chapter Seven: The Ends of the World--This chapter would be all the things outside the main area we've focused on so far.
Chapter Eight: Armies, Societies, and Organizations--The title is fairly self explanatory, and should provide sample stats and adventure hooks for the militaries and more secretive organizations in DF. We'll also have information on religion and worship here.
Chapter Nine: Daemonforge Arcana--New spells, domains, a restatement of the restrictions on magic, information on the fiendlords and patrons, and some magic items.
Chapter Ten: Broken World Bestiary--Here we'd have all the new monsters.
Chapter Eleven: Adventuring in Daemonforge--I'd love a chapter just full of plot hooks of varying depth, from one-line ideas to mini adventures. Also include suggestions for roleplaying characters, precautions and knowledge most adventurers would have, and advice for DMs. The main piece of advice is, "Everyone wants to open up the Gates of Dusk and Dawn, so don't do it."
I think we honestly have most of the necessary material for things like Patrons and Strongholds. We'd need to flesh out the other locations in each region, make things a little more reader-friendly here or there, and finish rules-proofing a lot of stuff, but I think we're already half done. Look good?
__________________ Ryan "RangerWickett" Nock
Post Haste?
Looking over this we had got most of this done already. LRK broke up the .pdf for me and I went ahead and edited it for spelling, gramatical errors, misplaced information, etc. Yes it was a beta run but it needed some TLC. Now we had decided to break the book up into 2 parts, 1 part for the Player 1 for the DM. Looking at the layout like this, I think 1 book would go well, although it would be rather large, but still viable.
I'll take each part in turn for discussion:
1. Preface: don't forget credit for who wrote it and so forth.
2. Chapter One: The basic classes from the PHB work well here, I don't see a drastic change too much from that. The spells that work and don't work, wouldn't that go in the Arcana area? Race building, Class choosing, etc. go here but what about feat's, skills, equipment, etc.?
3. Chapter 2: Timeline looks good as well as the history, i doubt it stretches for more than 10pages.
4. Region Chapters: This is more or less copy and paste from the web site, simple enough to do. Major NPC's can be fleshed out using online apps like PCGen to create them or Jamis Buck's NPCGen app to instantly create one. Once that part is done than we can put names to faces, have some art, etc. I really like the way that Thunderhead Games did the NPC's. They basically put a small box stating Race/Class and page number to where the main stats are located in the back of the book. IN the back there was about 20pages of fleshed out NPC's all in a central location. I like this idea and am all for implimenting such a way of doing it as that way we do not clutter the main book with stats, feats, skills, equip, etc and leave all that in the back where it belongs.
5. Chapter 7: I don't follow this, what does this mean?
6. Chapter 8: I agree wholeheartedly on this, except for the religous part, that needs to get moved to the arcana area in the next chapter. Religous groups/organizations yes, but not the detail of being a cleric. Is that what you meant?
7. Chapter 9: Put all the goodies with spells here, put what works, and what doesn't, detail religon, who worships what, what powers, what abilities do you gain, etc. Anything with spells here. Nix the magic items and move that to a seperate chapter, this chapter needs to only detail spells concerning divine and arcane you throw in magic items here and it will clutter it up.
8. Chapter 9a: Put magic items, special creation feats, risks doing so, what you can and can't do with magic items, potions, weapons, armor, etc. here. Splitting this into a seperate chapter allows the user to focus on this chapter for ONLY magic items and not for magic AND magic items.
9. Chapter 10: Copy and Paste, I think we have the statblocks done and they look good.
10. Chapter 11: Make sure you put in a disclaimer "This place is evil and you will die quickly if stupid". DF is one of the most meatgrinderish places ever. It ranks up there with Ravenloft with what has gone on and what goes on, the fiendlords are vicous, but calculating, don't underestimate them. The patrons have their own ideas about the 'fiendsolution' so just don't get in their way, survival is the key more than anything! Hooks could be used from the exploration of Mt. Barakas, to the debugging of the ivrelelum (don't do too much on this, it's my baby ), to the exploration of the Utalia islands.
We are definately above 50% done, I would gague 70%, we need to flesh out the stats on the Fiendlords' and patrons'. I think the ELH will do nicely for this, or should we use the D&Dg book to do this? NPC's need to get created and equipped. The layout is mostly in place. I have the .doc's that can be put into the .pdf and LRK will be more than happy to do this once we get a foundation in place.
Questions, comments, and concerns are always welcome..
"We are definately above 50% done, I would gague 70%, we need to flesh out the stats on the Fiendlords' and patrons'. I think the ELH will do nicely for this, or should we use the D&Dg book to do this? NPC's need to get created and equipped. The layout is mostly in place. I have the .doc's that can be put into the .pdf and LRK will be more than happy to do this once we get a foundation in place. "
I asked Upper Krust for help at statting the Patrons for a start...
Originally posted by The Burned Man "We are definately above 50% done, I would gague 70%, we need to flesh out the stats on the Fiendlords' and patrons'. I think the ELH will do nicely for this, or should we use the D&Dg book to do this? NPC's need to get created and equipped. The layout is mostly in place. I have the .doc's that can be put into the .pdf and LRK will be more than happy to do this once we get a foundation in place. "
I asked Upper Krust for help at statting the Patrons for a start...
but which group of stats are we going to use there are several options:
1. Dieties and Demigods: Both patrons and fiends qualify as demigods at least but it's not OGL.
2. Monster Manual: While OGL does not allow the flexibility that D&Dg brings with worship, different abilities and so forth.
3. E(?) level handbook: I forgot what the E stands for but this is for 20+ levels of PC's granting some of the powers of dieties but not all of them. Great for Patrons and fiends but not in production yet. Still don't know the Licensing issue for it.
Which option will we use? All have pros and cons associated with them. I like the D&Dg for the worship and granting of powers but the ELH book gives us more of what the fiends and patrons are: powerful warlords hell bent on destroying each other and handing out spells is just a bonus for them.
what needs to be fleshed out for the devine magic? I figure if we just mechanically treat the patrons and dieing gods like dieties it will work ok. Just give them however many domains and let clerics go nuts from there.
One thing I think we should be very careful of is maintaing the, what was the word Leopold used... "meatgrinderish" aspect of the world. Lets face it this world is not a happy place. I was in a very miserable mood and had been playing a lot of Warhammer 40K when I came up with the concept and it seems whenever I discribe it to other people the universal comment seems to be "There is a "good guy" inspired by Stalin? That's Brutal!"
yes this place for lack of any other word is 'meatgrinderish' if anyone has read any warhammer 40k books this would be a typical world that has chaos invading and the troops of the emporer fighting back. It's not pretty, it's not happy, it's downright repressive and cruel. But those are all the reasons I like it. It's not happy like FR. I doesn't have the ancient feel to it like the Greyhawk world does. And it damn sure does not have a drow ranger duel wielding Scimitars!!!!!! For this setting the forces of 'good' (the patrons) have held off the encroachment of 'evil' (the fiends) and the mist has created a berlin-wall type scenario. Evil is coming and it will eat at the kessel and the surrounding area like a cancer and then overwhelm it. The fiends care nothing but the overall destruction of the patrons and the enslavement of the races therin.
Now back on topic: The dieties realms need a lil fine tuneing and then they will be ok. From what I gather when we sent them to the list they were a tad too powerful and needed to work on the mechanics. For now if we treat them as imperialus says as just dieties and provide the spheres of worship and worry about the stats latter I can see that. The PHB didn't have the stats for gods so if that is all that is holding us up we can nix it till something better comes along.
So barring that what else is left? Do you want me to post the reworked over docs from the pdf and lets go over it and see what needs some changing?
Reflecting on things, I've come to the conclusion that we need more structure. Not only do we need people to have fairly precise duties and roles concerning the production of the setting, but we also need people to sign onto writing particular areas. We can't rely on random submissions, because we're too far into the process of making this world. Thus, we need to make a list of topics that need to be written, and ask people to dedicate themselves to writing them.
As for 'officer positions,' I think BurnedMan is probably going to stay our Style Editor, rewriting material so it fits the same style. I imagine Leopold will be Chief Setting Developer, acting as president. What other officers do we need?
Rules Editor--To rulesproof everything, playtest it slightly or at least make sure things are balanced. Make the rules work techincally. Art Coordinator--This position is not vital quite yet, but it will be when it comes time to do the final production of the sourcebook. Whoever this is will have to decide what needs art, and who to hire. Consistency Editor--This person makes sure that if we say the Pale Lord likes chicken, that somewhere else we don't say that the Pale Lord ordered all chickens removed from Skaukator. Also, the consistency editor should know better than to even allow the Pale Lord to like chicken, seeing as how he's dead.
Of course these positions will all have support by the rest of the group, but they'll each be in charge of making final decisions. We'll also probably want to have people decide to be experts on different locations. I'm more busy with Natural 20 Press, so I can't do too much work for DF myself, but I would like to handle most of the work involving Skaukator and all the spirits.
Once we get people to commit to writing particular material, we can move forward faster. We should have a membership drive of sorts, posting a huge list of what needs to be written, and asking people to sign up to fill in the holes. Also, it wouldn't hurt to release an rtf file of the setting, instead of a pdf. It makes it easier to copy/paste that way.
__________________ Ryan "RangerWickett" Nock
Post Haste?
Reflecting on things, I've come to the conclusion that we need more structure. Not only do we need people to have fairly precise duties and roles concerning the production of the setting, but we also need people to sign onto writing particular areas. We can't rely on random submissions, because we're too far into the process of making this world. Thus, we need to make a list of topics that need to be written, and ask people to dedicate themselves to writing them.
I concur. The random postings and setting information is nice as we have ALLOT of room to fill but steady people to do work all the time is rare and there are only a handful of us that post here weekly if not daily and participate in this setting.
As for 'officer positions,' I think BurnedMan is probably going to stay our Style Editor, rewriting material so it fits the same style. I imagine Leopold will be Chief Setting Developer, acting as president. What other officers do we need?
Me president? I guess when someone starts taking charge you get the whole kit and kabootle! This is up to the main regulars here. If they vote it so then I will accept, if someone else wishes to nominate another, it's a benevolent dicatorship so feel free.
Burned man for style editor and art selector I vote yes on.
Quote:
Rules Editor--To rulesproof everything, playtest it slightly or at least make sure things are balanced. Make the rules work techincally.
Grey one , burned man, and you share this task quite well. Imperialis too. My nominations for it.
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Art Coordinator--This position is not vital quite yet, but it will be when it comes time to do the final production of the sourcebook. Whoever this is will have to decide what needs art, and who to hire.
Burned man and L. Ron Kineviel (SP). LRK makes Damn fine maps and we need more of them when the time comes. Burned man knows some artists who have done work for us and can continue to do it I believe.
Quote:
Consistency Editor--This person makes sure that if we say the Pale Lord likes chicken, that somewhere else we don't say that the Pale Lord ordered all chickens removed from Skaukator. Also, the consistency editor should know better than to even allow the Pale Lord to like chicken, seeing as how he's dead.
Grey one, TBR, or you.
Quote:
Map coordinator Somone who makes maps and says that if some land has trees and 40miles south has a desert that this is all in harmony with the overall picture.
L Ron Kinevil I vote for this one. Make it Geographical layout person or some such title.
I know there are more but i can't think of any at this time. I think a thread should be posted on this and move this there...
Quote:
can't do too much work for DF myself, but I would like to handle most of the work involving Skaukator and all the spirits.
What is left to be done on it? All seems fairly complete to me.
Quote:
Once we get people to commit to writing particular material, we can move forward faster. We should have a membership drive of sorts, posting a huge list of what needs to be written, and asking people to sign up to fill in the holes. Also, it wouldn't hurt to release an rtf file of the setting, instead of a pdf. It makes it easier to copy/paste that way.
I am trying a membership drive now. I have a nice long list of what needs to be done, and there is quite a bit of fleshing out that needs to be finshed before it's ready to go. We still need stats on fiendlords and patrons and what type of rules base are we going to use for this.
Also making this setting OGC is key so we must bring everything in line with the license and make sure to add that in there as well. Making it OGC allows the work we do here to be used elsewhere and to show that we can build a world here and have everyone else wish to use what we create and build upon that. I can see this world coming into play in the future and I plan on moving my PC's here when they get higher in level as low level pc's will not survive DF...
My role as editor is a great role for me and I do enjoy it greatly. By all means send me material and post it here and lets debunk it and see what we can do.
By .ttf do you simply want an overview doc such as the first 3 or 4 pages of the DF .pdf? do you want both? LRK said he can do either or so that isn't a problem.
For an rtf file, I think we shoudl take all the material that we have for DF and put it into one text-only document. Pdfs are pretty, but harder to work with. If we had a .rtf or .doc file that people could download, it would be a lot easier to reference than having to use the website or the pdf.
As for Skaukator, I know the main info is done. I just want to keep a particular feel for it in case more stuff is written.
__________________ Ryan "RangerWickett" Nock
Post Haste?
I'd be happy to either playtest/ruleslawer or work on consitstancy. I have a group that is willing to play in Daemonforge with what we have so far. I have explained the concepts to them and they like it. Also we would probably be able to get together quite frequently.
I expect that I could kill two birds with one stone by playtesting it hardcore. After all a lot of consistancy issues will show up during acutal playing.
Originally posted by Imperialus I'd be happy to either playtest/ruleslawer or work on consitstancy. I have a group that is willing to play in Daemonforge with what we have so far. I have explained the concepts to them and they like it. Also we would probably be able to get together quite frequently.
I expect that I could kill two birds with one stone by playtesting it hardcore. After all a lot of consistancy issues will show up during acutal playing.
now this would be a great bonus! The only thing we need playtested heavy besides the typical PC's creation process and monsters is the domains for the fiends and patrons. I saw posted that they were too powerful and needed tweaking but nothing came from it.
Would you start the players at 1st level and work their way up?
PS: So we can put you down for tester/ruleslaywer? I know TBR is damn good at being a ruleslaywer and quoting refrences from the .pdf and he knows more about this setting than most .
yeah for sure. I've already run them through a one shot adventure. So far the race creation system seems to work quite well though the DM does have to keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn't get abused. I'll probably start them off at first level, and just doll out mad XP to try and advance them through levels quite quickly so we can get a good impression of how the game stays ballanced over what would normally be a long campaign.
If TBR (whoever that is, or do you me The Burned Man?) wants to playtest as well then that would be cool too. If, since the campaing setting is so big, he could DM a party who's focus on adventureing is in the mountains since that was kinda his sandbox from the day he got here. I could play one who focus is on the Kessel, and we could even get a 3rd person to run around the shattered isles if possible. It would give us a better idea of how each of the "mini settings" holds up by itself in an extended adventure. After all if the Shattered Isles DM is suffering burnout and a lack of ideas by the time his characters are 5th level we might want to consider beefing up the isles a bit.
__________________ Originally Posted by diaglo
Olgar Shiverstone or other new edition DM: so i've gotta wrap up the campaign..
diaglo: we could play OD&D(1974) the only true game. All the other editions are..
other gamer: i could run a campaign set in space with ninja pirates.
other gamers: done. when do we start.
diaglo:
Last edited by Imperialus; 13th May 2002 at 01:56 AM..
TBR=The burned man. It should be TBM not TBR silly typo.
I will be heading the PC's off to the shattered isles in a few months so I won't be able to test that area out unfortunately. Once we have the new sourcebook in play I think we can generate some new fans and have them come in and submit ideas for us to review or dream up some new ones on our own.
If I had a boat I would be on the water dreaming up ideas but I am landbound unfortunately at this time. The keys are calling and I might have to answer and think up some new areas.
Has anyone run through the game? What else did the players think? Is there a report on what worked and what was 'broken'?
Originally posted by RangerWickett For an rtf file, I think we shoudl take all the material that we have for DF and put it into one text-only document. Pdfs are pretty, but harder to work with. If we had a .rtf or .doc file that people could download, it would be a lot easier to reference than having to use the website or the pdf.
As for Skaukator, I know the main info is done. I just want to keep a particular feel for it in case more stuff is written.
i got the main doc already done and broken into 3 parts and one big .zip. I can combine them all together but this way is easier. See the main page and download the .zip file under the forum title DOCS 1.1 . We can use those as a springboard for the future works.
), to the exploration of the Utalia islands.
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