I would like to broach something with the group here. I know that I had spoken on working on the Ivrelum and expanding that into DF setting. I got to wondering about what else that I could do with the Ivrelum and came up with an idea for a sourcebook and an adventure. The sourcebook would entail:
1. details on red harbor (setting)
2. The ivrelum: All NPC's detailed with stat blocks
3. Mud and the Fiend lords with statblocks
So this would net me with more details on the city borrowed from here, True stats on major NPC's and some stats on the fiendlords and their domains.
What i wanted to do was use some of the material here on the DF site (names, places, etc. all OGC material) that we have already established sans the artwork that is not OPEN and build on that and create a sourcebook and subsequent adventure published by Natural D20 press (morrus's D20 company). Since I would be keeping it here in house and doing all the work building on the above I would push ALL of the information that is in the book into OGC and make that part of the DF setting book thereby contributing back to the group with the material that I created and used from here.
so in the end we would have more information than we currently have and finnally drawing more interest in the setting as i plan to use the ivrelum as a 'plug n'play' theives guild that can be based on any realm as long as certain conditions are met (port, mountains, etc.). The DF setting guide will contain snips from the sourcebook, some background info on the ivrelum, and the Stats from the fiendlords.
So what i ask from the group is this:
Do you mind that I use the ivrelum as a product to sell using the OGC material we have on here, expanding on it, and contributing ALL of the work into OGC to be put into the sourcebook?
Questions, comments, and concerns are appreciated and welcome. I would like to allay any fears of "Credit taking" or "PI ripping off" or anything allong those lines, I won't use anything that is copyrighted or artwork already designated as "Don't use for a pay work" (TBM i know which ones aren't for grabs and I have an artist doing some of the work as well). I have already spoke to some people about this and they are very very interested. I want to keep it local to here (ENWorld and NatD20) and expand on this setting as much as possible.
If you would like to work on this with me as well I am accepting those that wish to write under a strict deadline with an outline already prepared. If the group accepts this proposal that I am offering I would be more than happy to see what you can and cannot do and how it will benefit the project.
In the end i do not wish to cause discontinuity, harm, or ill will within this group. We have done allot of work getting all this together and prepared for a release. I just want to take one small snippet (the Ivrelum) and go in a different direction with the OGC material at hand.
First of all, and for the record, it's "Natural 20 Press." I swear, that damned logo must be the most confusing thing on this planet.
Second of all, though I'm biased as a member of Nat20, I think it's a great idea. Since it's all either new or OGC material, we should be good from a legal standpoint. It increases awareness, raises some funds for Russ, and for the DF project, and would definitely help flesh out a lot of DF. Also, if it does well, it would provide impetus to perhaps work on other locations and sell sourcebooks for those as well.
The only real problem I could see is that making the whole thing OGC kind of ruins the point of selling it for profit, because people could then just download the OGC material from someone else with few qualms. Probably you should make a few small areas of the book not OGC (things like adventures, maybe a few stats for minor NPCs), and then if the Daemonforge project needs to use anything that's not OGC, it can be arranged with a simple agreement between DF and Nat20.
I'm all for this, but like Leopold, I don't want to offend anyone by going too far. Russ, could you weigh in here, so people know your opinion?
__________________ Ryan "RangerWickett" Nock
Author of the War of the Burning Sky serialized novel, free at EN World. Part Two, The Irons Have Tolled, now available.
Just to make sure I fully understand what you're proposing:
You're proposing to write new material and sell it; however, that material will be carefully written to be fully compatible with DF without actually using any of the IP?
Sounds doable. You'd need to keep it modular, so that it doesn't actually use any DF material or names, but you could make it abundantly clear that it is fully compatible with DF.
I agree with RW about the OGC thing. It would be better to keep back some of the content and just give the DF people (and only the DF people) carte blanche to use it.
I'd go a step further - a share of the money made could go intoa "DF fund" which could be used to pay artists and other people for the DF project. What do you think?
"I'd go a step further - a share of the money made could go intoa "DF fund" which could be used to pay artists and other people for the DF project. What do you think?"
That sounds good..
"TBM i know which ones aren't for grabs and I have an artist doing some of the work as well"
The artist is doing work on what?
"The sourcebook would entail:"
"1. details on red harbor (setting)"
Grey Ones conception, you should contact him on info.
"2. The ivrelum: All NPC's detailed with stat blocks"
The same here.
"3. Mud and the Fiend lords with statblocks"
Mud was ???? Why would you need stats for all the other fiendlords at this point? Better to concentrate on people...
Making the whole book OGC is not what i meant...making the Fiendlords, Red Harbor, and the PrC's OGC is what is probably best. The NPC's are coming from my stash of Evil PC's/NPC's as well as stocking the town full of old PC's from various games that I have played in the many years. Makes those NON-OGC and specific to the book. The DF sourcebook will NOT detail those and be vague on the Ivrelum in general, in this way ensuring that the purchase of said material will correlate to the DF setting.
Unless we say that only the DF people can use this material, but what about DF in general is any of the material OGC/OGL? Wouldn't I have to include an OGL in the material and state what it is and isn't? How do we state what is and what isn't? Can we just say that only a few things are OGL? I have seen it done but i think we can settle what is OGL/OGC/PI/IP later. giving the DF people Carte Blance access is fine up to a point as what's the point in the sourcebook if they can dl the material for free here?
This sourcebook will be as Plug n'play as possible, meaning ANY DM from ANY setting can drop this into any world requiring only a few changes, but using this WITH DF is recommeneded and can be found at this website <insert website addy here>.
Slush fund for DF? I could see that, I just don't want to funnel all the proceeds that the book would make out of my penniless pockets and into the DF fund . A percentage would be nice to help pay for artists to draw up pictures for the main setting book as well as other things should the need arise.
NOTE: I do plan on doing a complete adventure later after the book has been published, this again would tie into the sourcebook and require it for play. How would this work?
Morrus: I would have to use the DF names for:
Red Harbor
Mud
Ivrelum
Fiendlords names (all 5 of them)
beyond that I don't belive i need any of them. The process i am proposing will flesh out red harbor more than it already is right now (which is substantial) but I would be borrowing some what from that to make this possible. Give the DM the details on the city as well as the guild and they wouldn't need much beyond that to full impliment the Ivrelum into their campaign.
TBM@Work: I thought you had sent me the pictures and a request to take down said artists if the site (ENWorld) went for profit. Was that you?
The fiendlord stats as well as MUD tie into the whole Ivrelum idea I set out to the group many months ago. I have shown RW an outline and a chapter by chapter synopsis of said work. I can post it here if you would like to see what it is about. I would prefer email to keep it under wraps (gotta squash the competition!)
Grey One: I await your approval on this as the town and Ivrelum were your idea but your blessing would be very much appreciated.
Originally posted by TheBurnedManAtWork Dont pull a Troy Denning....
who's troy denning and what did he do? I saw he wrote a bunch of Forgotten realm books but is that all?
Oh and before it is put out i would take the few folk that are still working on these files and conference them in and make sure that it is all in the spirit of the ivrelum and DF.
Originally posted by The Burned Man "who's troy denning and what did he do?"
He wrote the Prism Pentad (for Dark Sun) in which he basically altered the entire setting (killing of major characters etc)....
...then again he was one of the originators of the setting...
this is a sourcebook first and foremost. The adventure will show the PC's the inside of the Ivrelum HQ as well as attacking the major NPC's. Whether they live or die is up to the PC's. It's not core nor will it be factual. The world will go on as if they were there.
I was never in this for money. In fact one of the big reasons I started was because I was too damn poor to pay for a campaign setting and I wanted to see a professional quality setting out there that can be downloaded for free.
If you want to run with your own ideas though, go ahead. Only problem I might have with it is if it wasn't actually you who came up with the inital ideas for Red Harbor and the Irivelum, I can't remember who did it orriginally.
__________________ Originally Posted by diaglo
Olgar Shiverstone or other new edition DM: so i've gotta wrap up the campaign..
diaglo: we could play OD&D(1974) the only true game. All the other editions are..
other gamer: i could run a campaign set in space with ninja pirates.
other gamers: done. when do we start.
diaglo:
Originally posted by Imperialus I was never in this for money. In fact one of the big reasons I started was because I was too damn poor to pay for a campaign setting and I wanted to see a professional quality setting out there that can be downloaded for free.
If you want to run with your own ideas though, go ahead. Only problem I might have with it is if it wasn't actually you who came up with the inital ideas for Red Harbor and the Irivelum, I can't remember who did it orriginally.
i by all means want to contribute back to the project, it's just that the ivrelum have grown beyond a simple thieves guild into much much more. I would like to put something out on the market that will draw in interest to DF and at the same time try my hand at publishing a sourcebook which wouldn't be possible without the DF setting. Some of the money will come back to benefit the group and that in itself will be beneficial. By no means do i want anyone to feel like I am ripping off the setting, but my ideas to use the Ivrelum, fiendlords, and Red Harbor come from the DF setting.
I plan on making it fully compatible if not recommended to be run in DF but modular enough to be played in any setting. I did not come up with red harbor nor the ivrelum but it has grown beyond any scope that anyone had anticipated. Grey One came up with it and if it would be blessed by him allowing this I will draw up what needs to be done and make this available to anyone that is willing to work on it with me. I have most of it planned out already and just waiting for the ok of morrus and then i can begin work.
__________________ Ryan "RangerWickett" Nock
Author of the War of the Burning Sky serialized novel, free at EN World. Part Two, The Irons Have Tolled, now available.
I'm not really keen on the whole idea, since I never would have contributed had I known other people would take ideas and incorporate them in their own stuff for profit.
I don't want to be a party-pooper or anything.
The Ivrelum was always an organization that was more than just a thieves' guild. That's not new. Red Harbour I'm very protective of, though. I put it in my own campaign world after I wrote it. I don't like the idea of it and other stuff I came up with being out there for other people to make money off of.
I don't know. I don't want to come across as a jerk, and this is obviously something you're very keen on doing Leopold.
<selfish mode>: Its partly the credit for stuff (which I think has become a problem since we haven't really kept up a list of who did what). That's also why I thought presenting Daemonforge in the WotC contest was a bad idea. Who is gonna come forward saying that was their idea? It also makes me nervous thinking how many cool ideas that we all came up with that are going to find their way into campaign contest submissions?
The point for the ivrelum being in a seperate sourcebook is something I have been thinking of doing. Furthermore, we aren't having any luck with certain parts of the setting getting people working on them so nor fleshing out other important areas and stats. My goal for this project is 2 fold:
1. Provide the public with a theives guild that is both modular and well laid out using open material and in a creative fresh way.
2. Introduce the masses to Daemonforge and get more people involved.
those have always been my 2 driving factors. Me publishing a module is something I have wanted to do for a very long time as I know the in's and outs of organizations such as these and have built many for games I have DM'd in and played. Morrus brought up a point in contributing the funds made by selling this back into Daemonforge and I am for it, further making Nat20 a prescense in this field is a bonus and helps pay for more works to come.
I don't need red harbor to make the module the way it will be, I can create a city based on it using different schematics and other ideas I have. For me using Red Harbor would be an instant way for a DM to pick up the file and then pick up the Daemonforge .pdf and be able to drop in his players instantly. The more hooks we give the DM's the greater chance they will come back looking for more. Red Harbor was the tie in for Daemonforge that I was looking for, if need be I will find or create another city and position it there but it would be nice to use this one as the history and setting blend in splendidly with my ideas.
As for credit, I firmly belive in giving credit where credit is due. I would gladly share in and acknowledge those in the group that have worked hard and would contintue to work for this prodcut. It will in no way have ONLY my name on it. I have several people out here who are doing art for it pending the approval and they will credit the credit if the art work is approved, likewise with the writers and people I will bounce off material from on here and out there.
I plan on donating most of the data therein back to the group anyway thereby completing another promise I made for fleshing out the areas where we lack in. This will not benefit me alone but will benefit the group and overall realm in general.
Like I stated above, I want to try and bring in fresh blood here, show the world DF, and try my hand at publishing information I know I can build and do. All i ask is the blessing of the group so we can proceed forward.
thank you for your understanding and patience in this matter.
GreyOne has a point - we don't know who did much of it, and can't use it without their permission. The only OGC is the stat blocks - no names, descriptions etc.
Leopold, you're a relative newcomer to Daemonforoge, so I'd better fill you in on how it worked for the first year or so. Every submission had a disclaimer attached expressly granting permission to use for fre in DF, but not to distribute in another form or to sell. There are so many elements involved, from people who we have lost track of, that it would be very difficult to make this OK morally, let alone legally. Even if we didn't have them up in arms about sellling what they did, we'd still have broken a promise.
Perhaps the best way to do this is to create a truly generic product, not a Daemonforge one. We could easily integrate what you did into Daemonforge and use it for publicity that way. From the "attracting newcomers" point of view, it makes no difference whether it was written two years ago or last week.
Here's a thought that I'm just tossing out, with no real attachment or opinion to it.
The Ivrelum supplement could be put together professionally, and sold. A small fraction of the profit from the book could go to the writer and artists for their time, and the rest would go to the DF project, to pay for artists for the actual DF supplement. If this is still objectionable, then all the profits could go to the DF project, but it still should be for sale. People will be more interested in paying for something than just picking up a free supplement, oddly enough.
Then, the adventure could be written separately, with no direct links to DF. I'd think that people would be willing to give permission for Leopold to at least include a line like: "If you are playing in the Daemonforge setting, this adventure works best if set in the Red Harbour, with the Ivrelum as the thieves' guild." The adventure would not be making profit off DF, since it's a separate piece of work, but it would be fully compatible with the DF setting.
Well, that's my thoughts on it.
__________________ Ryan "RangerWickett" Nock
Author of the War of the Burning Sky serialized novel, free at EN World. Part Two, The Irons Have Tolled, now available.
Originally posted by RangerWickett
I'd think that people would be willing to give permission for Leopold to at least include a line like: "If you are playing in the Daemonforge setting, this adventure works best if set in the Red Harbour, with the Ivrelum as the thieves' guild." The adventure would not be making profit off DF, since it's a separate piece of work, but it would be fully compatible with the DF setting.
For me to even make this work in DF I would have to have a large page devoted to describing the name changes and the layout. In the end it would have NOTHING to do with DF at all and just be a modular setting to be placed anywhere ruining the whole reason behind placing it in the town of red harbor (which i can change) and using the names of the fiendlords.
All i ask is the basic use of the the names of the fiendlords and the name of the Ivrelum. The rest I will change from there. I won't use anything from the .pdf and will build a new town and have it placed in the .pdf. Would this be an acceptable alternative? In this way the Ivrelum can be used, Red Harbor is saved and the fiendlords are fleshed out and can be placed back into DF where they belong as well as partial funds being sent back into the group to work on future products.
i believe this is more than enough for a compromise as I ask for 6 words to use and nothing more and willing to give back so much.
All i ask is the basic use of the the names of the fiendlords
Leopold, you're kinda missing the point. Whatever concessions you offer, and however much you try to bargain, you're asking for permission that we don't have the power to give.
You can offer me the world in exchange for a second-hand jumbo jet, but if I don't have a second-hand jumbo jet, your powers of persuasion are redundant, as is any offer you make.
The material was written by people and submitted under a very specific disclaimer. I can't give you permission to use it, because that permission is not mine to give. No matter how long we discuss it, unless you have a time-machine, that material will still be useable only under the terms indicated by the disclaimer. Neither you nor I can change that.
__________________
Last edited by Morrus; 16th June 2002 at 06:24 AM..
so in essence morrus it is nigh high impossible for someone to figure out who did the fiendlords and where they came from. That makes sense as I have seen many people come and go here.
Very well, I will just alter the books contents to not reflect DF but make it so that it can link up with the DF setting easily.
I thank everyone for their time and discussion on this. This clears up allot and shows the path for the product. It will not use any DF material, names or otherwise, but I will find a way to link it back to the works.
Now that this is settled let's move on to completing the main .PDF and shipping it out to the masses as we have been stagnant on that for far too long..
. A percentage would be nice to help pay for artists to draw up pictures for the main setting book as well as other things should the need arise.
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