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This is a rather stronger than the one in the long thread. But I think the summon monster spells are a little stronger than we thought. This seed also compares well with shambler.
[Summon]
Conjuration (Summoning)
Root Spell:Summon monster suite, shambler Preferred Mitigation: Extended casting time Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 1200 ft. Effect: Summoned creature or creatures no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart, whose combined CR does not exceed 18 Duration: 200 minutes (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No
You summon one or more outsiders or elementals whose combined CR is 18 or less. Summoned creatures appear where you designate and act immediately on your turn. They attack your opponents to the best of their ability. If you can communicate with the creatures, you can direct them not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. The exact type of creatures are determined in the spell development process, or the appropriate flexibility factor included (see below).
When the spell that summoned a creature ends, and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast which remain in effect expire. A summoned creature may not use any innate summoning abilities it may have or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any innate planar travel or teleportation abilities that it might possess. It cannot cast any spells that would cost it XP, or use any spell-like abilities which would cost it XP if they were spells. When you develop a spell with the [summon] seed that summons an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, the completed spell is also of that type.
Factor: For each +1 CR of the summoned outsiders or elementals, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2. To summon a creature from another monster type (such as dragons or aberrations) increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +4. Major Flexibility: To create a spell which allows you to choose from a pool of up to any 12 predetermined individual creatures who otherwise fit the spell's criteria; or alternatively to choose from any number of closely-related creatures (such as demons or angels) within the CR limit, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +6. Sweeping Flexibility: To create a spell which allows you to summon any creature who otherwise fits the spell's criteria at the moment the spell is cast, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +10. Special: A character with any summon nature's ally spell on his or her class spell list may summon animals, plant creatures, feys and magical beasts without incurring the normal surcharge for summoning a monster from a type other than outsider or elemental.
***
This has a kernel of 10 + (CR x 2), and duration and range factors totaling +14.
Note that the summon monster suite will have a flexibility factor of about +8; there are the dozen or so monsters on the one list, but taking 1d3 of a monster from the next lower list is quite viable; and 1d4+1 monsters from the list two levels down is probably a better choice yet. Using a summon monster IX to summon 3 bone devils (CR 9 each) yields the equivalent of a CR 16 encounter, better than any single monster from the summon monster IX list. CR 16 has a kernel value of 42; add in casting time (-2) and range (+6) and flexibility (+8) and you have 54SP; just enough for a 9th level spell.
Shambler yields a CR 13 encounter, with a kernel value of 36; add in range (+8) and +10 duration (+4 for two steps; 20 rounds to 20 minutes to 200 minutes; then +4 to go one step beyond the normal maximum, to 20 hours, and +2 for half a step to 7 days). Exactly 54; a little more expensive, since there is the added functionality of guard duty for up to 7 months. Allowing extra duration steps at +4 per step is pretty generous of the DM.
This beefy version of [summon] allows a beginning epic wizard to summon a balor without much difficulty. I wonder if that is too much; it fits the power curve I'm extrapolating from the summon monster suite and from shambler, but still...
[edit] Preferred Mitigation changed from "Backlash, XP Burn" to "None". I'm worried about a caster summoning a creature much stronger than himself.
[edit2]Preferred Mitigation changed to Extended Casting Time. 'Cause the base spells use it. Must remember that reduced range and reduced duration are always preferred.
Last edited by Cheiromancer; 18th November 2006 at 03:26 AM..
Reason: title change
I am tinkering with this seed to make it more in line with the [summon] seed. I am also incorporating more elements of greater planar binding. I have tried to put in more opportunities for role-playing, too.
[Call]
Conjuration (Calling) [see text]
Root Spell:Greater planar ally, greater planar binding. Preferred Mitigation: Extended casting time, power components, ritual, XP Components: V,S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 1200ft. Effect: Called elementals or outsiders of CR 16 or less Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: No
A spell incorporating this seed calls extraplanar creatures to serve you. If you know an individual creature’s name, you may request that individual by speaking the name during the spell. Otherwise, you call an average specimen of the extraplanar creature. You may choose to allow your name, alignment and/or patron deity to be revealed to the creature which you are attempting to call. A target creature may decide to willingly fail its saving throw on the basis of this knowledge.
Factors: If you restrict [call] to a group of closely related creatures (demons, or angels etc.) you may reduce the Spellcraft Prerequisite by 6. Restricting [call] to a particular species (balors, trumpet archons, etc.) reduces the Spellcraft Prerequisite by 8, and restricting [call] to a particular individual reduces the Spellcraft Prerequisite by 10. If you choose not to restrict the [call] to a particular group or individual, you may instead choose to call upon a specific deity to send a creature of the deity's choice. The creature called may have a CR up to 6 less than would otherwise be the case, but will not attempt a saving throw. You may call upon a particular philosophical ideal (e.g. Chaos, Evil) to obtain the service of a creature associated with that ideal.
Factor (Special): By including [delude] as a descriptive seed (at +6 SP), you may develop a spell which misleads the target creature with regard to your identity and alignment, and portrays you as an ally with a similar ethos and sympathetic goals. Prior to its Will saving throw, the creature must first make a DC 20 Wisdom Check. If it fails the Wisdom Check the target believes your ruse, voluntarily fails its saving throw, and answers your call.
Creatures called by use of the [call] seed serve you initially for up to 200 minutes, and will perform tasks which you assign to them. Few, if any, creatures will accept a task that seems suicidal (remember, a called creature actually dies when it is killed, unlike a summoned creature). A called creature does not perform extraordinary services: it will not use any innate summoning abilities it may have or otherwise conjure another creature, cast any spells that would cost it XP, use any spell-like abilities which would cost it XP if they were spells, or perform actions to which it is philosophically opposed. If you wish to extend the creature's service beyond the initial period of 200 minutes, or have it perform extraordinary services, you must negotiate an additional payment with it (see below).
At the end of its task, or when a duration bargained for expires, the creature returns to you. At this time, you may renegotiate its service with you, or dismiss it back to its home plane at your option.
Note: When you use a calling spell that calls an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type.
Factors: For each additional +1 CR of the called creature, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2.
Factor: If your calling spell does not have an initial period of service, reduce the Spellcraft Prerequisite by 4. The called creature may become hostile if negotiations are not to its liking; use of a magic circle is recommended to ensure the caster's safety. A called creature may attempt to escape as described in the description of lesser planar binding.
Special: If you wish to extend the period of the creatures' service beyond 200 minutes, you must must negotiate with it to ensure its subsequent loyalty to you. For each additional 20 days of service rendered, a creature requires 1000 gp in goods and magic items for each hit die which it possesses. Such a contract is renewable; when you choose to finally end the contract, the creature returns to its home plane. If you require the creature to undertake especially hazardous tasks, the payment doubles. If you require it to undertake mundane tasks, or tasks to which it is philosophically sympathetic, the payment is halved. Called creatures will act at their own discretion within the limits of the instructions which you give them: evil creatures will seek to interpret the letter of any contract literally, twisting it for their own ends. Payment for extraordinary services (the casting of wishes and the like) is at the discretion of the DM.
***
Under optimal circumstances (a friendly creature willing to serve without fresh negotiations) this spell will compare quite well to a [summon] spell. You can get a CR 18 creature, same as with [summon], but one that is real.
Here's the kernel analysis:
kernel = 18 + (2 x CR)
Greater planar binding: 54SP for CR 18, close (+6), 10 minute casting time (-6), no initial service (-4) = 50SP. 8th level.
Greater planar ally: the same, but with an xp component, so 48SP.
I am not sure if factors need to be added to call creatures of high status; demon princes and so forth. Allowing a saving throw makes a big difference. This question needs more investigation.
I am also wondering if turnabout is fair play. I'm thinking that with the appropriate factor (+6 or so), an extraplanar creature may be summoned even if it is not an outsider or elemental. Since PCs are extraplanar when they are not on the Prime, they would be vulnerable if they stray too far from home. What do you think?
[edit] Added XP to preferred mitigations. Lots of Call spells require an XP payment.
[edit2] Incorporated other suggestions
Last edited by Cheiromancer; 18th November 2006 at 03:27 AM..
This beefy version of [summon] allows a beginning epic wizard to summon a balor without much difficulty. I wonder if that is too much; it fits the power curve I'm extrapolating from the summon monster suite and from shambler, but still...
Didn't we have this conversation before?
Actually, I like it. I'm comfortable erring on the side of generous seeds right now, given Matt's demonstrated prodigious metamagic capabilities. A 21st-level caster can choose to [Call] or [Summon] a balor; if he summons it (say for 20 rounds, with no other mitigation), he gets unconditional service but doesn't benefit from some of its SLAs (teleport, summon etc.). Jacobeans are going to excel in conjurations anyway, by the looks of things.
It's 3.5 bone devils on average from summon monster IX (CR almost 17): also bear in mind that using this yardstick, Matt can empower this spell at 23rd level (5.25 bone devils = CR 20.6), albeit for only 20 rounds. There again, he can cast it 5 times in a day - that's a lot of bone devils.
A 21st level wizard who opts for a summon balor spell is only going to be able to cast it once in a day. A 23rd-level Jake could cast two of these in a day - by this time, they'd have an unmitigated 20-minute duration. A brace of summoned balors is handy, no doubt, but I can see a lot of situations where the bone devils - and multiple redundancies therof - might be handier.
We're stuck in the power vs. flexibility conundrum, as always. Multiple lower-CR summonees are going to be viable for Matt; at 30th-level he can triple-empower his summon monster IX (8.75 bone devils, CR 26.6). Jake can summon a solar - that's pretty sweet. But that assumes a WotC CR, and I think we should probably be looking at Pd28. Without mitigation or appropriate feats, the solar isn't available until level 37 using the Pd scale (SP40 for a 20-round spell). Lots to think about, here.
**
Edit: I'm wondering if a thread per seed might be a little excessive. You might want to consolidate a little.
Last edited by Sepulchrave II; 12th November 2006 at 01:28 AM..
We did have this conversation before; I persuaded you at the time that [summon] was too powerful, but it seems that in the end I was persuaded by you as well. I doubt this will be the last time I will change my mind, or the last time we will exchange positions.
Quote:
Edit: I'm wondering if a thread per seed might be a little excessive. You might want to consolidate a little.
You might be right. It's the question of breadth vs depth. One thread to discuss everything was too much, but maybe a thread for each individual thing is too much, too. Perhaps Cathix knows how to merge threads? One thread for finalized seeds would be perfect. But if three controversial seeds are discussed in one thread, the conversation could get tangled.
Oh, and anything I put out here is subject to your editorial judgment, of course. You are generally a moderating influence, while I am still trying to explore the idea that a jacobean spell needs to be pretty powerful to match Matt's capabilities. I'm sure we'll find a balance.
I wonder if we can get ourselves mod powers for this little forum.
Last edited by Cheiromancer; 18th November 2006 at 03:27 AM..
I remembered one of my concerns the last time this question came up: the issue of a caster summoning creatures more powerful than he is. The +1CR = +2SP will keep this from getting out of hand, but it is possible for a 21st level wizard to [summon] a CR 23 creature; reduce duration and range by two steps each and increase casting time to 1 round. Quite modest expenditures of xp can make the difference quite dramatic.
There's a similar issue with [polymorph].
This raises some difficulties with CR. Is a 21st level wizard a CR 21 even if he summons a CR 23 monster to fight his enemies? It seems counterintuitive to think that a CR 23 monster is worth more when it is by itself than when it has a wizard providing back-up. Sure it is not quite as good as a real CR 23 monster, and the wizard had to waste a round casting the spell,... but still it is a little troubling to me.
What's the CR of a summoned monster? One less than a real monster? Two less? How much (CR-wise) is the loss of one epic spell slot and 1 full round of actions? Is this worth worrying about?
Last edited by Cheiromancer; 18th November 2006 at 03:28 AM..
The creature knows the name, alignment, and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to call it and may decide to willingly fail its saving throw on that basis.
I think that fusing binding and ally is a good idea for purposes of this seed, but I'm thinking that arcane casters might want to keep their cards hidden. Perhaps if the caster could voluntarily make this information known, rather than the target automatically apprehending the caller (and his motives). i.e. "you may choose to reveal your name, alignment and/or patron deity to the creature which you are attempting to call. A target creature may decide to willingly fail its saving throw on the basis of this knowledge."
In the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth there is a spell called ensnarement, which lures an extraplanar creature to the prime under false pretenses. It was updated in the Demonomicon article in Dragon, but the element of duplicity was lost: in the original ensnarement, the target thought that it was answering a gate spell from a sympathetic caster. A factor (say at a modest +2) which allowed a caster to make an opposed Bluff check vs the target's Sense Motive might be kind of fun.
I snagged the wording from Bringing Back the Dead (PHB 171). I'm thinking that what with gate, planar ally and outsiders summoning each other, that there must be a reliable mechanic for verifying who a caller is from. Of course there is probably the magical equivalent of phishing as well. I'm just concerned that if it is too cheap it will effectively render the saving throw meaningless. Although you would have to figure out the identity of someone the target would be favorably disposed to.
The point about anonymity is well taken. Can you suggest a mechanic for ensnarement? You don't think +2 is too cheap?
Isn't there a philtre of glibness or something that allows one to make a really good bluff check? If you are trying to ensnare a powerful outsider, you'd invest in some magical assistance. I would like to make this possible, but I don't want it to be too easy.
Last edited by Cheiromancer; 18th November 2006 at 03:28 AM..
Can you suggest a mechanic for ensnarement? You don't think +2 is too cheap?
Given skill-boosting spells and potions, it would be.
Perhaps the inclusion of [delude] as a secondary seed (at +12) is high enough to merit a no-save ensnarement-type spell.
We're into ambiguous territory here, though - [delude] acts as a factor, rather than a seed. And all kinds of headaches will ensue when we combine instantaneous and non-instantaneous seeds, anyway - I'd rather not go there quite yet. It would work as a descriptive seed, though - I'm assuming descriptive seeds don't otherwise impact the spell mechanics.
Maybe this would work:
Factor (Special): By including [delude] as a descriptive seed (at +6SP), you may develop a spell which misleads the target creature with regard to your identity and alignment, and portrays you as an ally with a similar ethos and sympathetic goals. Prior to its Will saving throw, the creature must first make a DC20 Wisdom Check. If it fails the Wisdom Check the target believes your ruse, voluntarily fails its saving throw, and answers your call.
A solar would be duped 60% of the time by this factor.
Some kind of Sense Motive would've been nice, but some powerful outsiders (notably pit fiends) have nada - sad, but true. Using skills is always wildly variable.
We'd be moving away from the core mechanic quite considerably with stuff like this, but I'm OK with that. There's plenty of room for invention.
Last edited by Sepulchrave II; 13th November 2006 at 07:55 AM..
Pit Fiends don't have sense motive as a skill? How can you survive in the Nine Hells if you take everything said to you at its face value?
Re: Ensnarement
Let's draft a spell that deceives a creature, as compared to one that just heightens the call until a creature is likely to fail its save.
Hmmm. Know what? I've forgotten how preferred factors work. I know if they are not preferred you get only half the normal mitigation value, but I don't remember what that is. The half-in-mitigation full-as-factor rule- does it have anything to do with preferred mitigation?
Increasing casting time to one hour is -8, isn't it (standard action => 1 round => 1 minute => 10 minutes => 1 hour is four steps at -2 each). Or is that when it is not preferred?
Is decreasing range by two steps (long to close) worth -4? Or only -2?
Help!
Last edited by Cheiromancer; 18th November 2006 at 03:28 AM..
King Solomon's Seal [Epic]
You can coerce fiendish nobility into service. Prerequisites: Epic Spellcasting, Epic Spell Focus (Conjuration), Knowledge (arcana) 33 ranks, Knowledge (the planes) 33 ranks, Spellcraft 33 ranks, able to cast greater planar binding as an arcane spell. Benefits: When you develop a spell incorporating the [call] and [compel] seeds which is aimed specifically at calling and exacting service from fiendish nobility (such as demon princes or dukes of hell), you do not have to pay the usual cost associated with calling unique entities. Furthermore, the target creature makes any saving throw or spell resistance check against a spell developed this way with a -10 penalty.
[edit] We don't seem to be using a factor for unique entities anymore. But we are giving a bonus to spells that call a specific individual; perhaps this feat could reduce the USP of such a spell by 10. And [call] includes an element of service (for 200 minutes, at least), so the spell probably doesn't need to include the [compel] seed.
And speaking of cool feats, let's not forget this one (which can apply to various seeds, but especially to these ones):
Seed Spasm [Epic]
You specialize in the rapid deployment of powerful, short-lived epic magic effects. Prerequisites: Epic Spellcasting, Quicken Spell Benefits: Any spell which you develop as a swift-action 1-round spell from a seed with a base duration of 200 minutes or more gains +30 additional special free factors. These free factors do not count against the development costs of the spell, but their function must be allocated during spell development: only factors specific to the seed (such as an increase to an ability score from the [fortify] seed, or an increase in the CR of a creature subject to the [summon] seed), not generic factors (such as increasing range or a spell's Save DC) can benefit from these free factors.
[edit] I know we said 1 round, but I think it'd be good if the spell could be extended a few times (at +2SP per extension). Some battles might only take a round to fight, but most will take at least 2 or 3. So the base duration would be reduced (via mitigation) down to 1 round, but could be extended thereafter.
Last edited by Cheiromancer; 18th November 2006 at 03:31 AM..
Reason: we decided the [Epic Magic] tag was redundant. A few edits.
Hmmm. Know what? I've forgotten how preferred factors work. I know if they are not preferred you get only half the normal mitigation value, but I don't remember what that is. The half-in-mitigation full-as-factor rule- does it have anything to do with preferred mitigation?
Increasing casting time to one hour is -8, isn't it (standard action => 1 round => 1 minute => 10 minutes => 1 hour is four steps at -2 each). Or is that when it is not preferred?
Is decreasing range by two steps (long to close) worth -4? Or only -2?
Help!
If a mitigating factor is preferred it just costs the regular amount - e.g. 1 point of backlash will reduce the SP of a spell by 1 point. Non-preferred mitigation is only half-as-efficient - e.g. you'd have to suffer 2 points of backlash to mitigate the SP of a [call] spell by one point.
I've kind of assumed that range and duration mitigating factors are 'always preferred,' because the seeds themselves are balanced on that basis. -2 per increment.
It also occurs to me that we don't have any flexibility/limitation in the [call] seed regarding whether a spell is developed to target a specific individual. I think this should be worth a hefty discount - maybe even as high as -10. It's not like a call Amon (or whatever) spell is upgradeable in the usual sense, either - sure, when you're 10 levels higher you could modify it so that Amon takes a -5 on his saving throw, but he's not going to be much use to you at that point anyway. You'll want call Belial by then.
Edit: But I really like the idea of a Goetic magician cowing a powerful outsider to his will over time. This idea needs more investigation.
A -6 mitigating factor might be applicable to restricting [call] to a group of closely related creatures (demons, or angels etc.) and would be the corollary of the flexibility factor in [summon].
I'd assumed that a +10 factor to use [call] to target unique outsiders (such as Amon) would be exactly balanced by the loss of utility in the spell. You could develop a totally generic spell or a completely specific spell at the same cost.
By using the ensnarement/lure mechanic, a spell's developer could 'do the research' and target unique outsiders with a lower Wis score. The idea of a wizard thumbing through his clavicle and musing about which Infernal Duke is more gullible is kind of amusing.
Ok. I'm going to add Extended Casting Time back in for [summon] then. I used the "normal" value of -2 for reverse engineering summon monster. If the base spell uses a factor it should generally be preferred.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sepulchrave II
It also occurs to me that we don't have any flexibility/limitation in the [call] seed regarding whether a spell is developed to target a specific individual. I think this should be worth a hefty discount - maybe even as high as -10. It's not like a call Amon (or whatever) spell is upgradeable in the usual sense, either - sure, when you're 10 levels higher you could modify it so that Amon takes a -5 on his saving throw, but he's not going to be much use to you at that point anyway. You'll want call Belial by then.
Edit: But I really like the idea of a Goetic magician cowing a powerful outsider to his will over time. This idea needs more investigation.
A -6 mitigating factor might be applicable to restricting [call] to a group of closely related creatures (demons, or angels etc.) and would be the corollary of the flexibility factor in [summon].
I'd assumed that a +10 factor to use [call] to target unique outsiders (such as Amon) would be exactly balanced by the loss of utility in the spell. You could develop a totally generic spell or a completely specific spell at the same cost.
By using the ensnarement/lure mechanic, a spell's developer could 'do the research' and target unique outsiders with a lower Wis score. The idea of a wizard thumbing through his clavicle and musing about which Infernal Duke is more gullible is kind of amusing.
How much would it cost to research call Belial if you have call Amon as a model? I suppose you'd have to subtract the additional CR factors for Amon, and then add the CR factors for Belial. It'd be expensive.
I like it. I'll incorporate some additional factors.
And I like the idea of a wizard musing over the gullibility of Infernal Dukes.
Last edited by Cheiromancer; 18th November 2006 at 03:29 AM..
This spell can affect undead and other creatures immune to mind-affecting compulsions. The "bypass immunity" factor is quite cheap; it's like the quicken factor of [polymorph].
Root Spell:Binding Preferred Mitigation: Extended casting time, power components Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 75 ft. Target: One creature Duration: See text (D) Saving Throw: Will negates; see text Spell Resistance: Yes
A binding spell creates a magical restraint to hold a creature. The target gets an initial saving throw only if its Hit Dice equal at least one-half your caster level.
Factors: When developing the spell you may choose to have it overcome a specific kind of natural immunity to mind-affecting compulsions (such as enjoyed by undead or constructs) by increasing the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +6 for each kind of immunity to be overcome. To overcome all spells and items which protect against mind-affecting compulsions (including mind blank and protection from evil) increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +4.
You may have as many as six assistants help you with the spell. For each assistant who casts suggestion, your caster level for this casting of binding increases by 1. For each assistant who casts dominate animal, dominate person, or dominate monster, your caster level for this casting of binding increases by a number equal to one-third of that assistant’s level, provided that the spell’s target is appropriate for a binding spell. Since the assistants’ spells are cast simply to improve your caster level for the purpose of the binding spell, saving throws and spell resistance against the assistants’ spells are irrelevant. Your caster level determines whether the target gets an initial Will saving throw and how long the binding lasts. All binding spells are dismissible.
Regardless of the version of binding you cast, you may specify triggering conditions that end the spell and release the creature whenever they occur. These triggers can be as simple or elaborate as you desire, but the condition must be reasonable and have a likelihood of coming to pass. The conditions can be based on a creature’s name, identity, or alignment but otherwise must be based on observable actions or qualities. Intangibles such as level, class, Hit Dice, or hit points don’t qualify. Once the spell is cast, its triggering conditions cannot be changed. Setting a release condition increases the save DC (assuming a saving throw is allowed) by 2.
If you are casting any of the first three versions of binding (those with limited durations), you may cast additional binding spells to prolong the effect, since the durations overlap. If you do so, the target gets a saving throw at the end of the first spell’s duration, even if your caster level was high enough to disallow an initial saving throw. If the creature succeeds on this save, all the binding spells it has received are broken.
The binding spell has six versions. Choose one of the following versions when you cast the spell.
Chaining
The subject is confined by restraints that generate an antipathy spell affecting all creatures who approach the subject, except you. The duration is one year per caster level. The subject of this form of binding is confined to the spot it occupied when it received the spell.
Slumber
This version causes the subject to become comatose for as long as one year per caster level. The subject does not need to eat or drink while slumbering, nor does it age. This form of binding is more difficult to cast than chaining, making it slightly easier to resist. Reduce the spell’s save DC by 1.
Bound Slumber
This combination of chaining and slumber lasts for as long as one month per caster level. Reduce the save DC by 2.
Hedged Prison
The subject is transported to or otherwise brought within a confined area from which it cannot wander by any means. The effect is permanent. Reduce the save DC by 3.
Metamorphosis
The subject assumes gaseous form, except for its head or face. It is held harmless in a jar or other container, which may be transparent if you so choose. The creature remains aware of its surroundings and can speak, but it cannot leave the container, attack, or use any of its powers or abilities. The binding is permanent. The subject does not need to breathe, eat, or drink while metamorphosed, nor does it age. Reduce the save DC by 4.
Minimus Containment
The subject is shrunk to a height of 1 inch or even less and held within some gem, jar, or similar object. The binding is permanent. The subject does not need to breathe, eat, or drink while contained, nor does it age. Reduce the save DC by 4.
You can’t dispel a binding spell with dispel magic or a similar effect, though an antimagic field or mage’s disjunction affects it normally. A bound extraplanar creature cannot be sent back to its home plane due to dismissal, banishment, or a similar effect.
Power Components
The power components for a binding spell include materials appropriate to the form of binding used. These components can include such items as miniature chains of special metals, soporific herbs of the rarest sort (for slumber bindings), a bell jar of the finest crystal, and the like. Opals are the preferred gemstone.
I would make this an esoteric seed; I think a prerequisite epic feat which also extended the remit of [compel] should also make [binding] available.
Animus Invictus [Epic][Epic Magic]
Your epic compulsions sweep all resistance aside, and the most potent methods of restraint are known to you. Prerequisites: Epic Spellcasting, Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment), Spell Focus (Enchantment), Spellcraft 33 ranks. Benefit: Epic spells which you develop with the [compel] seed automatically extend to creatures who would not normally be subject to [mind-affecting] effects, such as plants, undead, constructs and oozes. You automatically bypass nonepic protections against [mind-affecting] effects, including mind blank; you are entitled to an opposed caster level check to penetrate an epic spell developed with the [ward] seed which is keyed to the [compel] seed. Special: If you possess this feat, you may develop spells using the esoteric [binding] seed.
Quote:
A binding spell creates a magical restraint to hold a creature. The target gets an initial saving throw only if its Hit Dice equal at least one-half your caster level.
On the basis that all seeds operate at CL 20, I'd limit it to 10HD with a +2SP/HD factor progression to raise the cap for save eligibility.
Quote:
When developing the spell you may choose to have it overcome a specific kind of natural immunity to mind-affecting compulsions (such as enjoyed by undead or constructs) by increasing the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +6 for each kind of immunity to be overcome. To overcome all spells and items which protect against mind-affecting compulsions (including mind blank and protection from evil) increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +4.
I'd drop these factors on the basis of the prerequisite epic feat.
Quote:
You may have as many as six assistants help you with the spell...
I'd drop these factors, and simply make rituals a preferred mitigation. It could get confusing, otherwise. See special note below. I suppose we need to look at rituals again, at some point.
Rather than reduce the Save DC on the various types of binding, I'd increase the Spellcraft DC by twice as much.
Root Spell:Binding Preferred Mitigation: Extended casting time, power components, ritual Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 75 ft. Target: One creature Duration: See text (D) Saving Throw: Will negates; see text Spell Resistance: Yes
A binding spell creates a magical restraint to hold a creature. The target gets an initial saving throw only if it has 10 or more Hit Dice.
Factor: To increase the cap below which creatures are ineligible for a Saving Throw, add +2SP for each additional Hit Die.
Regardless of the version of binding you cast, you may specify triggering conditions that end the spell and release the creature whenever they occur. These triggers can be as simple or elaborate as you desire, but the condition must be reasonable and have a likelihood of coming to pass. The conditions can be based on a creature’s name, identity, or alignment but otherwise must be based on observable actions or qualities. Intangibles such as level, class, Hit Dice, or hit points don’t qualify. Once the spell is cast, its triggering conditions cannot be changed.
Factor: Setting a release condition reduces the Spellcraft Prerequisite by -4.
If you are casting any of the first three versions of binding (those with limited durations), you may cast additional binding spells to prolong the effect, since the durations overlap. If you do so, the target gets a saving throw at the end of the first spell’s duration, even if the spell disallowed an initial saving throw. If the creature succeeds on this save, all the binding spells it has received are broken.
The binding spell has six versions. You may choose to default to any version for which you have adequately increased the Spellcraft Prerequisite when you cast the spell.
Chaining
The subject is confined by restraints that generate an antipathy spell affecting all creatures who approach the subject, except you. The duration is one year per caster level. The subject of this form of binding is confined to the spot it occupied when it received the spell.
Slumber (+2SP)
This version causes the subject to become comatose for as long as one year per caster level. The subject does not need to eat or drink while slumbering, nor does it age. This form of binding is more difficult to cast than chaining.
Bound Slumber (+4SP)
This combination of chaining and slumber lasts for as long as one month per caster level.
Hedged Prison (+6SP)
The subject is transported to or otherwise brought within a confined area from which it cannot wander by any means. The effect is permanent.
Metamorphosis (+8SP)
The subject assumes gaseous form, except for its head or face. It is held harmless in a jar or other container, which may be transparent if you so choose. The creature remains aware of its surroundings and can speak, but it cannot leave the container, attack, or use any of its powers or abilities. The binding is permanent. The subject does not need to breathe, eat, or drink while metamorphosed, nor does it age.
Minimus Containment (+8SP)
The subject is shrunk to a height of 1 inch or even less and held within some gem, jar, or similar object. The binding is permanent. The subject does not need to breathe, eat, or drink while contained, nor does it age.
You can’t dispel a binding spell with dispel magic or a similar effect, though an antimagic field or mage’s disjunction affects it normally. Epic spells incorporating the dispel seed are effective against a binding. A bound extraplanar creature cannot be sent back to its home plane due to dismissal, banishment, or a similar effect.
Power Components
The power components for a binding spell include materials appropriate to the form of binding used. These components can include such items as miniature chains of special metals, soporific herbs of the rarest sort (for slumber bindings), a bell jar of the finest crystal, and the like. Opals are the preferred gemstone.
Special: If this spell is cast as a ritual, a participant who contributes a spell of the Enchantment (compulsion) subschool counts double its level for purposes of determining the mitigating factor.
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I'd like to include an Imprisonment effect in the [binding] seed; soul bind and trap the soul seem largely redundant with binding.
Last edited by Sepulchrave II; 18th November 2006 at 11:07 AM..
I suppose we need to look at rituals again, at some point.
Sounds good. How about now?
Last I recall about ritual casting, the leader needed to have the Leadership feat, and the mitigation was his leadership score. Although it seems that this bonus gets awfully high, and it doesn't seem to involve any real cost. Maybe we should go back to the drawing board and find something more like the ELH system- which is rather like binding, now that I think of it.
Oh, and there was a feat in there, too; Cabal Leader.
Quote:
On the basis that all seeds operate at CL 20, I'd limit it to 10HD with a +2SP/HD factor progression to raise the cap for save eligibility.
That sounds good. We'll have to fiddle with it so that an 18th level wizard who casts a 9th level spell adds +6 to the guy's caster level. This boost would affect caster level checks against SR, wouldn't it? The spell description says "your caster level for this casting of binding increases by a number equal to one-third of that assistant’s level," and since binding allows SR, I'm presuming this bonus counts.
Based on the casting time of binding, I'd think a one minute minimum time for a ritual would be appropriate. I think we agreed on that before, but it's been a while, and I'd like to reaffirm it.
How about if the ritual adds 1 point of free factors per 3 spell levels contributed, and increases the caster level of the spell by the same amount? The spell contributed has to be of the same school as the base seed of the spell. A spell which incorporates a ritual effect has to specify what the free factors are used for. In the case of binding it would be to raise the HD/no save cap. In the case of a [summoning] it might be CR (if that is left open) or perhaps duration factors. Caster level boosts wouldn't so much be valuable in combat (the 1 minute caster time makes this use inconvenient) but might help very much in ensuring that nobody comes along and dispels your epic wards or curses or what not.
The esoteric [binding] seed allows ritually contributed spell levels to count as double.
A scheme like this would match up very well with [binding], but wouldn't get out of hand with other spells. A few issues are outstanding:
How many folks can contribute to a ritual?
I wouldn't mind capping it at 6.
What is the effect of Cabal Leader?
Maybe he can lead rituals with more people in it; up to 9, perhaps.
If epic spells are contributed, what should they be valued at?
Significantly more than a 9th level spell; they are a lot more valuable. I'd suggest that their value is 6+SP/6. Triple what a non-epic spell is worth. This yields similar results to Syneresis.
What about contributions of xp, shared backlash, etc.?
Dunno.
I like the Animus Invictus feat. I'm presuming it would apply to supernatural mind blank abilities such as you ascribe to Graz'zt.
Did you change your mind on the [Epic Magic] tag? Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't you think it was redundant? At least I remember agreeing that it was redundant.
The [binding] seed looks really good. It shouldn't be too hard to expand its remit to imprisonment and soul bind. Just add two more options to the list.
Based on the casting time of binding, I'd think a one minute minimum time for a ritual would be appropriate. I think we agreed on that before, but it's been a while, and I'd like to reaffirm it.
Yes.
Quote:
How about if the ritual adds 1 point of free factors per 3 spell levels contributed, and increases the caster level of the spell by the same amount? The spell contributed has to be of the same school as the base seed of the spell. A spell which incorporates a ritual effect has to specify what the free factors are used for. In the case of binding it would be to raise the HD/no save cap. In the case of a [summoning] it might be CR (if that is left open) or perhaps duration factors. Caster level boosts wouldn't so much be valuable in combat (the 1 minute caster time makes this use inconvenient) but might help very much in ensuring that nobody comes along and dispels your epic wards or curses or what not.
I like this; although if we go this route, rituals are no longer mitigating factors, per se. We'd need to drop them from the 'Preferred Mitigation' line, and instead include a note in 'Conditions:' "Spells developed with this seed can be cast as ritual spells." Some could, others couldn't - which seems more appropriate, anyway - a ritual [blast] seems rather odd. A compound spell which included a ritual-eligible seed as its base seed would still be eligible.
6 casters as a maximum number sounds good, too; I really like the idea that spells contributed need to be of the same school as the epic spell.
There were 2 feats - Ritual Adept and Cabal Leader. I think Ritual Adept should allow the number of casters which you can coordinate to scale with Spellcraft: (ranks in Spellcraft/3) would resonate with a 15th-level Wizard casting a binding spell, and would prevent rituals from getting too out of hand. It might need some additional perk, or it will be an unattractive epic feat.
I'd still like to incorporate the Leadership effect of Cabal Leader, but I'm not sure how. I think it should use a different mechanic to Ritual Adept, and not depend on the school of the contributed slot - in fact, I don't think that it should use spell slots at all. Or directly on the Leadership score. Maybe
No of free factors = (5*Level of your highest level spellcasting follower gained by virtue of the Leadership feat)
would work. Leadership score 43 (7th-level spellcasting follower) would mean 35 free factors; Leadership 56 (8th-level spellcasting follower) would mean 40 free factors. Maybe that's too much. It would scale very slowly, though - which is kind of nice.
I like the increased weight of contributed epic spells a lot, although maybe a flat 10 free factors would be easier.
Last edited by Sepulchrave II; 18th November 2006 at 06:37 PM..
Ok. Sounds like we are agreed on everything but the feats (I think it is appropriate for ritual being moved to a condition). Having an epic spell worth 10 is fine, too.
I like the notion of # of participants = (Spellcraft/3) playing a key role. If rituals are capped at 6 participants, then, given enough powerful casters, the feat might be worthwhile even at level 24 or so. 2 more casters means +6 factors and +6 caster level. That would be +24SP if purchased a la carte (+1 caster level is split into 3 separate factors). Not a terrible return on a feat, though most of the a la carte factors probably won't be useful. At level 36 you have 6 more casters (12 total) and potentially +18 factors and +18 caster level. Or more, if some of them are epic spellcasters. That's a nice feat, even if you are only worried about SR, or enemy dispels or something. Of course, you have to come up with twelve high level wizards to reap the full benefits, but that's OK; it serves to limit the feat at very high levels.
If one feat allows you to involve more participants, a different feat should allow you to get more out of the ones you have. Maybe get double the benefit of the donated spell levels, to a maximum of your leadership score? Every ritual spell thus gets the "special" text of [binding]. And double double is a triple, so you can't go too crazy with [binding] and this feat. Although really, if you have the leisure to cast a ritual spell like [binding], your opponent ought to be hosed.
I don't know about you, but to me "Cabal Leader" sounds like it should be the one that allows you to lead more people in a ritual; "Ritual Adept" sounds like it would let you perform more intense rituals with a given set of resources. Although it wouldn't be an oxymoron if the "Leader" feat involved Leadership.
Anyway, the one that is intense and tied to your leadership score: If you have six 18th level wizards contributing 9th level spells, a standard ritual would get 18SP worth of factors and +18 caster level (call this a "+18 ritual"). Doubled is 36, a leadership score which is pretty easy to meet, even for wizards. If you have a few epic spellcasters contributing slots (10 x 2) you would have a hard time making your leadership score high enough; but an optimized caster could reap a huge benefit. This is a good option for casters who associate with a small group of capable people. Epic Leadership is probably worthwhile for its own sake, but enabling you to get 75 free factors in a spell (and +75 caster level!) is just amazing.
The feat that increases the number of participants, and is tied to your Spellcraft score: it is not as flashy. You need the cooperation of more people, but your results could match that of a smaller, more intense ritual.
They do different things, so I wouldn't make one the prerequisite for the other. Having both feats together could be very interesting.
![[Summon], [Call] and [Binding]](http://www.enworld.org/forum/iconimages/dog-soul-hosted-forum/summon-call-binding_ltr.gif)
How can you survive in the Nine Hells if you take everything said to you at its face value? 
I know if they are not preferred you get only half the normal mitigation value, but I don't remember what that is. The half-in-mitigation full-as-factor rule- does it have anything to do with preferred mitigation?
