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I'm starting to get a picture of what a high level wizard will be able to do in our system- he can do an awful lot. It's less clear what an epic fighter or rogue will be capable of. I strongly suspect they will be very much subordinate to the spellcasters.
Now this might be OK. One legitimate style of adventuring is to have everyone be an epic caster; I think there will be enough variety that way. And folks could even be combat brutes: using some variation of Tenser's transformation, perhaps, or a well-buffed [polymorph]. Or you could have mages as PCs, and the fighters and rogues will be NPCs and cohorts and such; kind of an Ars Magica model.
However I am tempted to give the non-magical classes some compensation. At levels when they don't give feats to give them SR (or a boost to existing SR). Or Spell Immunity/Spell Stowaway to particular spells. Ways of saying "Oh no you don't" and/or "Me too!" Some fig leaf with which to preserve their dignity when the epic spellcasters are strutting their stuff.
Perhaps we shouldn't worry about this. Or at least not much; devising a workable epic spell system is a monumental job, we shouldn't try to fix the whole epic system. But I think a page or two of concrete suggestions might help maintain a semblance of class balance, and make epic wizards spare a thought for the threat posed by epic characters who aren't spellcasters.
I know I keep harping on this point, but I think that quite a bit of the discrepancy is removed when you give fighters their good BAB back, especially if you also use more metamartial feats like power attack and combat expertise. it means that against most equal level foes, the fighter will never miss, but not only is that what power attack is for, but many of the spellslingers spells are unavoidable too-- and I mean, it doesn't take much effort to see how powerful spellcasters get, as you said.
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Yeah. If the spellcasters continue to grow in magical power, and they do, it seems odd to require that fighters and barbarians have their BAB nerfed. Would you grant full BAB to Eldritch Knights too? Or only classes without spellcasting? What about paladins and rangers?
Any ideas about rogues and bards?
Tangent:
One thing I noticed about epic progressions is that epic bonus feats are absolutely essential. And you only get them after either 20 levels in a base class or 10 levels in a prestige class. Rampant multi-classing and cherry-picking carry a heavy penalty at epic levels. Or taking short prestige classes. It is very ironic that taking all 5 levels of the Archmage prestige class will likely make you an inferior archmage compared to someone who went wizard 20. And Mystic Theurge... ugh. Loremaster is OK, though, and Eldritch Knight.
I agree about BAB - it should simply increase in the same fashion as nonepic BAB (for all classes). It's all about how much you can afford to put into your Power Attack. Otherwise, it's feats. Especially feats which grant amazing (Su) abilities which spells can't replicate.
If a Fighter gets Devastating Critical at 25th level, he should be able to do some crazy sh*t by 50th level. More than just kill lots of bad guys in his Improved Whirlwind Devastating Great Cleave - he can do that anyway. I'd also like to see feats which specifically have 'lame' prerequisite epic feats (like Legendary Leaper) - to have them open up possibilities in the way that Dodge does. They could be pretty meaty.
Given the scope of spells, it becomes harder and harder to think of abilities that can't be dupilcated by an epic wizard.
All multiclassed warrior-types will default to the Fighter class at epic levels in order to gain access to the feats. There needs to be some really flavorful differentiation available. Epic weapon style and tactical feats. Supernatural abilities. Supernatural resistances.
Last edited by Sepulchrave II; 29th November 2006 at 06:50 AM..
Part of this, at least, is very doable. It can be explained that the new rules for epic spellcasting and the metamagic feats make epic wizards gain rapidly in power; the fighting classes shouldn't have their BAB nerfed.
[snip]
We can change the prerequisites for Epic Fighter so that anyone with a +20 BAB can take levels in it.
Should something analogous be done for epic wizard and sorcerer? Caster level 20 and 9th level prepared arcane spells lets you take levels of epic wizard; caster level 20 and 9th level spontaneous arcane spells lets you take levels of epic sorcerer? As it is, people with various prestige classes can't get those juicy epic bonus feats. Pity the poor archmage who goes epic.
Last edited by Cheiromancer; 29th November 2006 at 08:36 PM..
Reason: Concern about Eldritch Knight dealt with.
I'm hesitant about saying that everyone's BAB increases at the previous rate, though. Eldritch Knight, for example, is a bit of a problem. If it has full BAB and full spellcasting it will be too strong- won't it?
Honestly, I don't think it's a problem. EK gets a bonus epic feat every 4 levels (vs. Wizard's 3 and Fighter's 2); material resources have to be split between class functions. d6 hit points.
Some ideas. For rogues, I think the key is in revamping the epic skill system. Something along the lines of after X skill ranks in a particular skill, you effectively gain an SLA at will as an extraordinary ability.
To an extent, the system already supports this. The "fanatic" category, for instance, is effectively a "charm person" that can't be dispelled, and comes from enough ranks in diplomacy. Of course, in the ELH, there's no save against this effect, or even an opposed roll, which makes it broken, one of the reasons I think it needs to be revamped. In other case, like the extra abilities of balance and such, the abilities granted by high checks are set too far out... there's no reason to make balancing on a cloud so difficult when a low level spellcaster can just cast fly.
It might be reasonable to make these purely "unlockable" abilities based on skill RANKS invested, much like you did with the spellcraft prerequisite for epic spells. It would start turning the rogue into a hedge mage, but one that works even in anti-magic and dead-magic zones, and who can't have his work dispelled. Skill use is the rogue's niche, after all, with only a secondary role in combat. It'd be nice to be able to give that back to him.
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Some ideas. For rogues, I think the key is in revamping the epic skill system. Something along the lines of after X skill ranks in a particular skill, you effectively gain an SLA at will as an extraordinary ability.
To an extent, the system already supports this. The "fanatic" category, for instance, is effectively a "charm person" that can't be dispelled, and comes from enough ranks in diplomacy. Of course, in the ELH, there's no save against this effect, or even an opposed roll, which makes it broken, one of the reasons I think it needs to be revamped. In other case, like the extra abilities of balance and such, the abilities granted by high checks are set too far out... there's no reason to make balancing on a cloud so difficult when a low level spellcaster can just cast fly.
It might be reasonable to make these purely "unlockable" abilities based on skill RANKS invested, much like you did with the spellcraft prerequisite for epic spells. It would start turning the rogue into a hedge mage, but one that works even in anti-magic and dead-magic zones, and who can't have his work dispelled. Skill use is the rogue's niche, after all, with only a secondary role in combat. It'd be nice to be able to give that back to him.
I think this is a good idea. At what ranks do you think that these abilities ought to become available, and at what rate should they progress? (i.e. 0 level spells become available at 30 ranks, 1st level spells become available at 33 ranks, etc...)
Also, would such abilities be truly spell-like, or would they be extraordinary abilities that emulate spell effects? And... For those effects that granted a saving throw, what would determine the DC?
One of the big issues I can see with it also is the difference in saves and BAB progression*. Just continuing the charts means a low save can be crippling, and low BAB against tougher and tougher foes makes it impossible. For example, what you need to remotely challenge a lvl 20+ tank would become impossible for a lvl 20+ non-tank to hit. And anything that requires a save becomes either ridiculously easy for some characters, or utterly impossible for others depending on who the encounter is tailored towards.
It becomes less fun when so many of the rolls boil to either "only fail on a 1" or "only succeed on a 20". Those situations are certainly fun on rare occasions, but not when it's nearly every single roll.
However, plentiful magic can mitigate these. Or just use the Epic rules of "everyone gets +1 BAB, and +1 to all saves". That would be easiest, but if you want to keep classes different, maybe just allow every class to raise 2 or 3 out of the 4 (BAB, Fort, Ref, Will) - player's choice - at each level.
But, also in the 20-30 range, with magic items and buff spells, it might still be a non-issue.
* Yes, I know Epic rules doesn't technically progress BAB because of the number of attacks issue, it instead adds some silly bonus to your BAB. Really, it's pretty much saying "These aren't apples since you can't have more than 4 apples. These here are quapples that just happen to look, feel, and taste just like apples. Just never call them apples, of course."
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraSeer
The easiest balance example is BAB, which diverges widely if you follow the standard progression. A Ftr40 would end up with a +40, a Wiz40 only +20, and the disparity gets worse as the level rises. At some point, any monster whose AC presents a challenge for the fighter becomes totally impossible for the wizard to hit, even with a touch attack. If these two characters were in the same party, it'd become difficult to design encounters in which they both could contribute.
*Would* there be a problem if there were 20+ point discrepancies in saving throws and BABs between characters?
*Would* there be a problem if there were 20+ point discrepancies in saving throws and BABs between characters?
Saves, yes. BAB, no. I don't believe so.
Edit: I'm of the opinion that epic save progressions might be extended to all creatures with more than 20HD, as well.
I also think that a quickened true strike goes a long way towards alleviating any fears a wizard might have regarding his ranged attack. Remember, with a continuation of nonepic BAB, nobody is being penalized - and full progression classes simply regain it, and get a benefit as a result - i.e. they hit stuff more often - or, more likely, they can power attack more.
I don't buy the argument about "but the mage can't hit..." The mage has suffered no loss of combat effectiveness. He has retained his 1/2 progression. I ask: why is the party suddenly being faced by opponents with very high ACs?
You should expect a fighter to hit everything at 50th level, all of the time. It's part and parcel of his function.
I also invoke 'hit points are an abstraction.'
Last edited by Sepulchrave II; 30th November 2006 at 04:05 AM..
Ok. I agree that all classes should use their natural BAB progressions. I'd suggest limiting the number of iterative attacks at 4/round, though.
Everyone gets good saving throw progressions at epic levels. Is that OK? It's presuming an arms race with ability buffing items, but I think we are going along with that.
How about we make the Epic Classes prestige classes with indefinite number of levels. All would have "character level 20+" as a prerequisite, but the other prerequisites would vary from class to class.
E.g. if you have BAB +20 you can take levels of Epic Fighter. No matter how multiclassed you are.
And if you can prepare 9th level arcane spells with caster level 20, you can take levels of Epic Wizard.
If you can cast 9th level arcane spells without preparation and with caster level 20, you can take levels of Epic Sorcerer.
If you can cast miracle as a divine spell with caster level 20, you can take levels of Epic Cleric.
If you ... what should be the entry condition for Epic Druid? Or the rest of them?
I know the above criteria are a little slack; a rogue1/fighter1/wizard 18 with Practiced Spellcaster could take a level of Epic Wizard. But that shouldn't be a problem.
And if they are a prestige class with good saves, it means everyone gets a +2 save boost when they go epic. Well, worse things could happen.
I'd like to see Fieari's idea with skills fleshed out, too.
I agree that all classes should use their natural BAB progressions. I'd suggest limiting the number of iterative attacks at 4/round, though.
Absolutely - I'd assumed that was understood.
Quote:
How about we make the Epic Classes prestige classes with indefinite number of levels. All would have "character level 20+" as a prerequisite, but the other prerequisites would vary from class to class.
E.g. if you have BAB +20 you can take levels of Epic Fighter. No matter how multiclassed you are.
AFAIK, there is no longer any distinction between 'epic class bonus feat' and 'epic feat' in 3.5 - they are simply bonus feats, now. There are no lists of eligible feats in the 3.5DMG in the epic section.
I think.
I agree with your basic sentiment wrt epic classes - they should be open to multiclassed characters who meet certain basic criteria. The loss of bonus epic feats is way too severe a penalty for a little multiclass dabbling, or for taking a 5-level PrC. PrCs which take a character way off track (Acolyte of the Skin, say) are harder to deal with, and probably require their own epic PrCs.
Epic Bard: Tricky. Bardic music and mass suggestion class ability, Perform skill?
Epic Barbarian: BAB +20, rage class ability? I guess a Ftr 19 / Barb 1 could qualify, but why would he bother?
Rogue: Sneak Attack +8d6???
I'm hesitant to define a rogue's roguishness simply by virtue of his sneak attack damage, though.
Found it! This link was the one that I was thinking of that defined the criteria for epic classes:
Cleric: If you have 24 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion), and can cast miracle as a divine spell,...
Druid: If you have 24 or more ranks in Knowledge (nature), and can cast summon nature's ally IX as a divine spell...
Sorcerer: Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, ability to spontaneously cast 9th level arcane spells... (although it is really "cast without preparation" isn't it? A pedantic quibble)
Wizard: Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, ability to prepare and cast 9th-level arcane spells.
Other skill ranks could be added to this. And probably caster level 20 as well. And as for the other classes, well:
Epic Barbarian could be made contingent on BAB +20 and 6 rages/day.
Epic Paladin could require smite evil 5/day.
Epic Bard: ?
Epic Monk: ?
Epic Ranger: 5 favored enemies
Epic Rogue: 10d6 sneak attack damage
In general; an 18th level fairly distinctive ability, or a 20th level ability that can be attained by feats (Extra Rage, Extra Smiting, etc.) A lot of rogue prestige classes give bonus sneak attack damage, so I don't think it would be wrong to require it. And if worse comes to worst, they can take a few more levels of the base class before they take the Epic Class.
I'm not sure about the epic bard; I can imagine all kinds of "bardy" prestige classes that might not grant that ability. And as for the monk, levels 11-20 look like a prestige class already. There is a lot of ways that one can develop the idea of an unarmed martial arts fighter. Having them multi-class and eventually go into Epic Fighter might not be terrible.
Blurting out more thoughts. In the pseudo-SLA vein:
Ungraspable [Epic] Prerequisites: Escape Artist 33 ranks, Improved Evasion class ability, Dex 30 Benefit: You are treated as though under the benefit of a freedom of movement spell for certain purposes. This is an Extraordinary ability.
You may move and attack normally under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. You automatically succeed on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.
So in the arms race between a grappling specialist and an escape specialist, the escape specialist wins? I guess some arms races can have winners.
And this is a good thing for rogues and barbarians to be doing around 30th level, when the big +30 epic spellcasting feats really get going. Does wall of force impede motion? How about repulsion?
Definitely extraordinary; it should be the non-magical types who get to do this stuff.
[edit] Upper_Krust pegs it as a divine ability; the equivalent of six feats. The prerequisites are 40 ranks of Escape Artist. It is an extraordinary freedom of movement. If the rogues and barbarians win the arms race, it seems that 30th level might be a little early. Or perhaps UK overestimated its power.
I'd scrutinize it a little more closely. Perhaps 30th level is too early for there to be a winner in the race between grapplers and escapers.
Last edited by Cheiromancer; 3rd December 2006 at 02:47 PM..
Upper_Krust pegs it as a divine ability; the equivalent of six feats. The prerequisites are 40 ranks of Escape Artist. It is an extraordinary freedom of movement. If the rogues and barbarians win the arms race, it seems that 30th level might be a little early. Or perhaps UK overestimated its power.
Interesting. He might be right - the grapple thing is where I have issues, as well. A continuous slotless item which granted the ability would be only 80K, though. I figured that if an extraordinary ability mimicked the item at 10x that cost - i.e. 800K - then about 30th-level would be OK. It would be the equivalent to the cost of a #1 item.
Consider an extraordinary mind blank ability, 480K slotless. As an (Ex) it would be worth 4.8Mgp - a #1 item at 59th level. I suggest that around this level, such a feat might be available.
Is this a reasonable way in which to measure the value of a feat? It seems vaguely sensible.
At least with spells you could reasonably invoke the mechanic of the OCLC. If someone has an extraordinary ability, what can you do? And it's not like the item is unprecedented; the leap from a ring of free movement to a slotless item is a small step to make. There are other ways of making oneself ungraspable anyway- incorporeality would be the most obvious. I think grappling is a tactic that loses in the long run.
BTW, why not make it like freedom of movement in all respects? If you are unimpeded by solid fog, why should water hinder you? If it is the fact that water is nonmagical, then what distinguishes the mundanity of water from that of an opponent's grapple check?
I'll ask UK about the justification for it being a divine ability; in the meantime, let's keep it a feat tailored to rogues and barbarians. Maybe add a caster level penalty to it, just to make sure it stays out of a spellcaster's repertoire. Perhaps it could have an [antimagic] tag, and each such feat carries a -4 CL penalty.
How about [compel]? Do you suppose that there should be a winner in that race, too? Perhaps an [antimagic] feat with the slippery mind special ability as a prerequisite.
I rather like the idea of [antimagic] feats. What do you think?
Last edited by Cheiromancer; 3rd December 2006 at 06:10 PM..
Blurting out more thoughts. In the pseudo-SLA vein:
Ungraspable [Epic] Prerequisites: Escape Artist 33 ranks, Improved Evasion class ability, Dex 30 Benefit: You are treated as though under the benefit of a freedom of movement spell for certain purposes. This is an Extraordinary ability.
You may move and attack normally under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. You automatically succeed on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.
Should this be (Su)? Should an AMF trump it?
I'd keep it Ex just like all other feats. Should it always be in effect? I suppose yes at this level anyways.
I'm starting to get a picture of what a high level wizard will be able to do in our system- he can do an awful lot. It's less clear what an epic fighter or rogue will be capable of. I strongly suspect they will be very much subordinate to the spellcasters.
Now this might be OK. One legitimate style of adventuring is to have everyone be an epic caster; I think there will be enough variety that way. And folks could even be combat brutes: using some variation of Tenser's transformation, perhaps, or a well-buffed [polymorph]. Or you could have mages as PCs, and the fighters and rogues will be NPCs and cohorts and such; kind of an Ars Magica model.
However I am tempted to give the non-magical classes some compensation. At levels when they don't give feats to give them SR (or a boost to existing SR). Or Spell Immunity/Spell Stowaway to particular spells. Ways of saying "Oh no you don't" and/or "Me too!" Some fig leaf with which to preserve their dignity when the epic spellcasters are strutting their stuff.
Perhaps we shouldn't worry about this. Or at least not much; devising a workable epic spell system is a monumental job, we shouldn't try to fix the whole epic system. But I think a page or two of concrete suggestions might help maintain a semblance of class balance, and make epic wizards spare a thought for the threat posed by epic characters who aren't spellcasters.
Do you have any thoughts along these lines?
I think a perfect answer to this is the Warblade/Swordsage stances and manuevers, etc. To be honest this is probably how a fighter would be re-worked in "4th edition". These things can give you a ton of powerful abilities and options to keep up with a spellcaster. You cannot do things similar to a full caster obviously but it has some pretty neat powers.
IE you can get fire resistance equal to your tumble ranks, the ability to shadow jump as a standard, move, or swift action, damage equal to your concentration roll in lieu of a normal roll, a +100 to damage, Iron Heart Surge which allows you to shrug off most effects on you (even antimagic fields per the sage), ways to ignore DR or hardness with a strike, ways to fly for brief times or jump extremely high, etc.
Basically it's a huge boost of options for non spellcasters to do a lot of neat things. How does this fit into a normal game? You can play those classes obviously, but perhaps those types of abilities are available via feats? That way a fighter or rogue or ranger, etc can get some added benefits to make up for the fact that they are so dependant on magical items. This really helps give them more power against things like discjunction. What do you think?
We kinda have to stick with material in the SRD, or which can be derived from the SRD. The Warblade/Swordsage etc. is not Open Game Content, so we can't directly reference it. The Bo9S is hardly universal, either. That's one reason to seek alternatives within the core classes.
Another reason is that the core classes should be playable at epic levels. They may need a little tinkering, but throwing them away and replacing them with classes from another book- that is a little extreme.
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