Opposed Caster Level Checks, [Dispel] and [Destroy]

[Sepulchrave II]

I want to talk about opposed caster level checks, first (OCLCs hereafter).

I would like to propose a hierarchy, of sorts, for spells - based on their effectiveness at overcoming defenses or repelling attacks. It's one aspect (maybe the most important one) of the 'epic benefit' a spell receives. I'm going to call the order of epic seed power A, B, and C - imaginative, eh?

A. Defeats/resists all effects except other special 'category A' effects automatically. It defeats other category A effects with an OCLC.
B. Defeats/resists all nonepic effects automatically, defeats/resists epic effect with OCLC
C. Defeats/resists most nonepic effects, requires OCLC to defeat key nonepic effects and epic effects.

Category A Effects

I propose that we have 3 'category A' effects: esoteric [disjoin], the antimagic effect of [ward], and the pernicious aspects of [afflict] and [polymorph]. (I've changed my mind regarding epic antimagic; I think it should be invulnerable to [dispel])

Unless these effects come into direct competition with each other, the conditions which they determine will automatically prevail, i.e.:

[Disjoin] automatically ends all spell effects
[Ward] (Antimagic) automatically suppresses all magical and supernatural effects
[Afflict] cannot be broken

If these effects are tested against one another, then their otherwise automatic precedence is resolved via an OCLC, i.e.:

[Disjoin] can end a pernicious curse via an OCLC
[Disjoin] can destroy an antimagic [ward] via an OCLC
An antimagic [ward] can suppress a pernicious curse via an OCLC

It might be worth thinking of it more in terms of a particular spell's power to resist, as well, because of the perspective it offers.


Category 'B' Effects

I propose that, if possible, we move the baseline of all other seeds to category [b]. I've been thinking about this a lot. The nonepic protection is automatically defeated; or the nonepic threat is automatically neutralized, e.g.:

[Reveal] automatically defeats a mind blank, but requires an OCLC against an epic protection.
[Delude] automatically foils nonepic means of penetrating it, but against [Reveal] it must succeed at an OCLC.

Etc. Moving some effects to this baseline might mean tweaking a few things.

E.g.:

[Destroy] (as we have floated it) is a category C - it can only bring down a nonepic prismatic sphere with an OCLC. If we allowed [destroy] to automatically trump a prismatic sphere it would move to a category B.

I would argue that this benefit merits another +4 increase kernelese: - "this seed automatically destroys all nonepic wards," or whatever.


The power of the seed can be mitigated down, it's the baseline effect that I'm talking about here: an epic [destroy] can also use its 'destroy anything' effect as a reserve for factors; the same goes for many other seeds.

Make sense? Whaddya think?

[Cheiromancer]

My gut tells me that a binary resolution system would be better; category A and B/C only.

I'm thinking that some technically non-epic magic might be classed as epic effects for the purpose of interacting with this system. Wish and an extraordinary miracle, prismatic sphere- these would require OCLCs to resolve. Perhaps antimagic field is a pseudo-epic effect too, as is mind blank; they have that same kind of absolutist language that distinguish them from most other spells.

How does Matt fit into this system? Can he make an "class B" disintegrate by heightening it enough?

Maybe these "pseudo-epic" spells make an OCLC at a penalty based on the spell level. Mind blank resists [compel] if it succeeds at an OCLC with a -4 penalty. Antimagic field resists [dispel] if it succeeds at an OCLC with a -8 penalty. Set the penalty at -2 per spell level below 10. The penalty can be reduced by Heightening the effect, and can be eliminated if Heightened to spell level 10 or higher.

Actually, if we take absolute language as the criterion, probably all kinds of spells can be folded into this mechanic. Feeblemind says it can only be removed by a handful of spells- this suggests that an epic spell needs to make an OCLC check to trump it, and feeblemind takes a -10 penalty in resolving the check. The description of death ward says it provides complete protection against energy drain, and so [harrow] brushes it aside if death ward fails the OCLC. The odds are rather in [harrow]'s favor, since death ward will have a -12 penalty to the check.

Does that make sense? Aside from a few category A effects, epic effects can overwhelm opposed absolutes with an OCLC. When non-epic spells clash with epic spells, they take a penalty to this check based on the amount by which they fall short of spell level 10.

[Sepulchrave II]

How would you resolve things with the 'penetrate resistance/immunity' factor; for example:

A [slay] spell overcomes a death ward with an OCLC at +12
A [reveal] spell overcomes a mind blank with an OCLC at +4

How would this interact with a factor which granted [slay] the power to ignore protections against [death] effects, and [compel] to ignore protections against [mind-affecting] effects?

Should [compel] be allowed an OCLC against mind blank?

[Cheiromancer]

I would say that such a factor would bump that particular instance of [slay] to a category A effect.

Although I believe that such factors would need to be re-examined in light of this discussion. If people knew that opposed death wards would take such a heavy penalty, they might not bother with paying for the extra power; most of the time it would be redundant. Or they might pay a few points to get a bonus to OCLCs. To actually overwhelm opposed epic death wards might require a substantial premium.

There would thus be three typical cases: one where the epic benefit was traded in for other factors - death ward automatically prevails; the standard case - death ward makes an OCLC at -12; the absolute case - death ward automatically fails.

Category A - A for "absolute"? Category B - B for "baseline"? No handy mnemonic occurs to me for case C, the one where death ward prevails. "Cheap"?

What seed would govern [death ward] effects, anyway? [Augment]?

Should [compel] be allowed an OCLC against mind blank?

An Absolute [compel] wouldn't allow an OCLC. A Cheap [compel] would be blocked automatically. There would be an OCLC for a Baseline [compel], since mind blank is phrased as providing absolute protection. A B-[compel] would get +4 on its OCLC.

[Cheiromancer]

I'm thinking that most non-epic protective spells would be a B category, and non-epic offensive spells are a C. Thus death ward always trumps a non-epic death spell.

In contrast, most epic spells are B's, and thus get OCLCs to overwhelm non-epic "absolute" protections. I don't know if this nerfs spells like mind blank and death ward too much, though. We might need to balance the seeds more carefully, and put a higher premium on the epic benefit factor. For instance, a B-[harrow] might be like enervation, while a C-[harrow] of the same SP will be more like energy drain.

A B-[Compel] might be like a charm monster effect; a C-[compel] could emulate dominate monster at the same SP.

[edit] I see I am contradicting what I wrote above about a binary-type system. Oh well.

[Sepulchrave II]

I think we're pretty much on the same page here; it's a question of exactly where we draw the baseline, and I'm pretty flexible with that.

The seeds will need more scrutiny; but some of them can have have sweeping powers. Consider:

[Destroy]
Transmutation

Root Spell: Disintegrate
Preferred Mitigation: Backlash
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 1200 ft.
Effect: Ray
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial
Spell Resistance: Yes


I'm going to consider disintegrate on its own merit for a moment, without reference to [blast]:

Disintegrate (36) + Heighten (+4) + Increase Range (+2) = 42.

That's a lot of empty factor space. We could include an increased volume factor, so that [destroy] can affect lots of matter. Say we upped the volume to 20 x 10 ft. cubes (at +4? It seems reasonable)

We could double empower it: the base [destroy] seed would then do 80d6 damage (+12)

We could give it a category B benefit: 'defeat prismatic effect and epic [ward] etc. with an OCLC.' (+4)

Or we could give it a category A benefit: destroy any effect w/o a caster level check. How much would that cost? Would it extend to antimagic field and so on?