Is there any market for rule-less Adventures and Settings?

[Spirynth]

I'm thinking about delving into some RPG ePublishing for fun (and hopefully some profit, although I understand that shouldn't be a main focus).

With all the OGL and GSL and all that - I was wondering if there was any worth in going for something "System-less." Meaning that I would describe things (monsters, NPCs, traps, etc) but would not put any specific game system stats in.

So, say for instance, I'd create and adventure with story, maps, NPCs, and monsters, traps, encounters - all described. but the purchaser would have to then do the extra work to fit in the actual game-stat stuff for my "placeholders" using whatever game system the purchaser used.

The advantages would be that they could be used with ANY game system - and that (hopefully ) I would be able to provide interesting, rich content. Downside is that the purchaser could not use them right out of the box - they'd have some of the work to do.

Now - my question is: Is there any market for this? Or does the RPG'ing public only want fully-game-specific-stat'ed-out content that they can use with no additional work?

- I suppose I could create and use my own sort of "psuedo-system" to stat things out - that would be similar to, but not exactly the same as any existing game system...

[weem]

Good question as I was wondering the same myself recently. I have a lot of ideas and am in fact working on my own campaign setting - but I also have been wondering if there was a 'market' (an interest) in things like that, where a name is provided (for example) of an NPC along with a brief description, but stats are left up to the DM to decide (or to not 'stat-up' at all if not needed), etc.

Anyway, like I said, good question - one of which I don't have an answer for

[knightofround]

An interesting business model might be making the campaign setting itself free, and then provide the stats on commisson.

I think it would be pretty tough to sell an world without stats though. That would be simply showing a fantasy world. You'd be competing with every fantasy world out there. Yeah I could buy your "Gnomercy!" supplement to get a cool campaign idea, but I can also read a random fantasy novel/fanfiction and get the same thing. And chances are the novel is going to be much more fun and easy to read. The reason why we buy Greyhawk/FR/Eberron campaign settings (rather than the novels) is because they've got stats.

[Khuxan]

Originally Posted by Spirynth

So, say for instance, I'd create and adventure with story, maps, NPCs, and monsters, traps, encounters - all described. but the purchaser would have to then do the extra work to fit in the actual game-stat stuff for my "placeholders" using whatever game system the purchaser used.

I would consider buying a setting without statistics, especially if it was humanocentric medieval fantasy (because then many more RPGs would fit the world). But I certainly wouldn't buy an adventure without statistics.

EDIT:

An interesting business model might be making the campaign setting itself free, and then provide the stats on commisson.

This is certainly an interesting idea, and one that I can see working. Doesn't NeoExodus work like this?

[Jraynack]

While not a campaign setting/adventure, our Any Edition products Medieval Landscapes: Peasant House is our best selling product at the moment (it also landed the conveted number 1 spot at RPGNow when released).

As soon as we finish putting our 4th Edition packages together, we plan to release more products of that line - and we are even considering doing a Any Edition Feudal Lords Campaign Setting.

So, I would say there is definitely a market. There is a lot of people out there simply looking for good, solid ideas and themes to insert into their own homebrewed campaign.

[JVisgaitis]

Originally Posted by Spirynth

Now - my question is: Is there any market for this? Or does the RPG'ing public only want fully-game-specific-stat'ed-out content that they can use with no additional work?

- I suppose I could create and use my own sort of "psuedo-system" to stat things out - that would be similar to, but not exactly the same as any existing game system...

I'd think you would be fine with a ruleless campaign setting. You would just want to present all of the same material from any campaign setting book minus the crunch. You would be competing with a lot of other quality settings, so you would want to make sure that you have something unique to offer.

Now ruleless adventures, I don't know. To my knowledge that has never been tried before. That would be an interesting proposition. The thing with adventures though, is I would think that a lot of people buy them for something easy to play outta the box (at least I do). With adventures, I think ruleless would be the same as including either 4e or 3e stats. At least that way you serve some sort of an audience and then you would have a basis to convert from.

The idea of a pseduo-system? I wouldn't waste my time. I don't see any advantages for that.

[Spirynth]

Okay - (I've asked this out in a few other areas as well - even asking various players and DMs in my local area) - it sounds like "system stat-less" would work for campaign stuff, but not adventures.

The general consensus was, as others here have stated, that people tend to buy adventures expecting to be able to, more or less, be able to use it "out of the box" with minimal prep-work. (makes sense, I guess)

But setting stuff (campaign material or simply just detailed places for adventures to take place) seem to be a better bet for "systemless".

And it also sounds like the "psuedo-system" idea would be kind of a waste of time. (the people I spoke to elsewhere agreed with JVisgaitis on that point - "It'd be just as much work for me to convert from your 'pseudo stats' as it would from no stats at all...")

Oh, and Jraynack - really excellent job on the "Peasant house"! Very cool!

Thanks all for the replies!!!

[Kraftworks]

Originally Posted by Spirynth

I'm thinking about delving into some RPG ePublishing for fun (and hopefully some profit, although I understand that shouldn't be a main focus).

With all the OGL and GSL and all that - I was wondering if there was any worth in going for something "System-less." Meaning that I would describe things (monsters, NPCs, traps, etc) but would not put any specific game system stats in.

You might want to consider creating products that are systemless and then providing "conversions" on a website. That way your products are free of trademarks and their accompanying license issues yet your customers are able to get what they need to use the product virtually out of the box. The conversions don't necessarily have to be provided directly -- customers could be encouraged to place their conversions up as forum posts on your website, which you moderate.

Regards,

[davout1805]

Originally Posted by knightofround

An interesting business model might be making the campaign setting itself free, and then provide the stats on commisson.

I'm working on something like that right now. The campaign will free but the stats would be in pdf files which could be purchased. Although the pdf products (races/creatures) would be usable outside my campaign.

However, one concern I have is how would prospective users of the campaign feel about this. The progression of my thoughts were "I have things from my campaign that people might be willing to acquire for a few bucks". Then I thought well maybe I could sell my setting too. However, there are hundreds of commercial and free settings. So I figured I'll publish that for free. If just one person liked it and used it, I'd be thrilled. But I could see some saying "You suckered me into this setting and now you expect me to PAY for the stats."

Anyone have any thoughts?

Thanks.

[JoeGKushner]

One of the questions you have to ask... how large do you want your audience? You'd think that a systemless book would go furtherest as it could be used by the most people no?

And yet... Green Ronin isn't doing any systemless books this year.

That says it's not worth their time because the potential scale of sales is under what they can do with their other printing/product slots.

I could be 100% wrong mind you but actions speak louder than words and no systemless book says no large scale sale.

[Vigilance]

I think system-less books are a bad idea in most situations, or at least an idea that will have a smaller audience.

The thing is, most people have an easy time coming up with ideas for adventures and campaigns.

That's the FUN part.

What they pay other people to do is the stuff that's not fun, such as rules.

Green Ronin's systemless books are a special case because A) Freeport has a built-in audience they've cultivated and grown for a decade or so and because B) as I recall they DID release books of rules for the setting as well, in PDF form.

[Psion]

Originally Posted by Vigilance

I think system-less books are a bad idea in most situations, or at least an idea that will have a smaller audience.

The thing is, most people have an easy time coming up with ideas for adventures and campaigns.

That's the FUN part.

What they pay other people to do is the stuff that's not fun, such as rules.

I think there's a great degree of truth to that. In many cases, the rules (or setting implied by a certain set of rules) are exactly what customers are shopping for.

And while some note that Green Ronin made systemless books:
1) They also put out system-targeted pirates guide books.
2) (Personal perspective) As far as systemless books go, I don't find PGTF nearly as effective as the likes of Citybook, which provided a "pseudo system" framework that gave me a basis to adapt the characters to my system of choice.

[Relique du Madde]

Reported

[Bishop Odo]

Most people need a familiar touchstone rules wise, and that is whatever most popular system, with an OGL. Personally I don’t care, over the years I have converted so many modules to off or little used systems, D6, Fantasy Hero, Rolemaster, and Skills and Powers, that I do not fear the conversion factor, in fact it’s quite liberating. However, we are talking marketing and making a profit, hey if it’s a good product, people should buy it and you should be rewarded.


I simple truth is, I look for a product that does what I can not do. Art work, maps and cultural details that I find unique draw me to a product. I can and always adapt a little, I hate to say, but I reject many products just because of the poor art and maps.

[El Mahdi]

I'm not very good with plot and story when it comes to making my own adventures. And, for the most part, I really don't care about system when it comes to an adventure. I look for a good plot and story, with interesting locations and well thought out npc's/monsters. I want monsters and npc's motives and actions to be consistent with the plot, and the setting (locations, etc.) to be consistent with the story and the npc's. I simply convert mechanics to what I need anyways. So...

Personally, I'd be very interested in rules-less adventures. However, I wouldn't be willing to spend the same amount as I would for an adventure that already has the mechanics laid out in my preferred system. If, for example, someone made rules-less adventures similiar to the pocket adventures that AEG made (Alderac Entertainment Group), I'd buy them up en-masse.

I really can't comment on whether it would be a successful product. If you have marketing data that tells you it might work, then I'd say go for it. But, I can say that I'd be interested.

[Desert Hare]

Originally Posted by El Mahdi

If, for example, someone made rules-less adventures similiar to the pocket adventures that AEG made (Alderac Entertainment Group), I'd buy them up en-masse.

I really can't comment on whether it would be a successful product. If you have marketing data that tells you it might work, then I'd say go for it. But, I can say that I'd be interested.

Maybe the thing to do would be to for each adventure to have web support, putting the mechanics for each system into a web enhancement. Now that, I'd definitely be interested in.

[Sigurd]

The problem I see with a systemless publication is that its not more useful to me the buyer than a publication for another system.

So a person not using the OGL wants to buy a pdf. She can choose a systemless pdf or an OGL product (a system she doesn't use). Whats going to compel her to buy the systemless version? Empty pages for writing in her own stuff?

Maybe better story or description of story goals and backgrounds? Unlike a rules system what do you point to as your selling features?

Systemless pdfs will compete with every other PDF from every system out there.


Sigurd