Originally posted by jezter6 I wouldn't mind CD's in stock of certain products, but it's like buying music CDs...many people waste money buying a full CD only to get one or two pieces they want to have. I think after a while (in such a small market like d20) that people would give up on buying CD's full of stuff they never wanted.
That will never happen. No way could I get the vendors to agree to me sending you our archive of products. Hell I wouldn't trust my best friend with that! Putting source files in the hands of FLGS probably isn't going to work...
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Originally posted by jezter6 I like the customized burn-on-demand. James, have you ever thought about that yourself? Again, saving me having to keep inventory of certain things in the store...but I'd have to wait for shipping which would suck.
Umm.. we have been offering this service for almost a year now Just pick out whatever you want to buy, then add this item to your cart and you'll get both the download links and a CD in the mail sent via Priority Mail!
The demo hardcopy idea is a great one, and yet another reason for such a product to ally itself with a larger print publisher - who might want to arrange in addition to single sales adding such a cd into a backsleeve of another product as an "enhanced limited edition" copy or something.
That will never happen. No way could I get the vendors to agree to me sending you our archive of products. Hell I wouldn't trust my best friend with that! Putting source files in the hands of FLGS probably isn't going to work...
James
Well, it's not much different than me going and ordering them for one of my customers without a credit card. I would have that file somewhere on my system. Of course, I wasn't talking about the whole stock of inventory...that's just crazy. And honestly, I wouldn't have the space for such a venture.
I was speaking more of CD's for my shelves that are for sale, like a malhavoc CD that would have all 3 boem's and banewarrens on it. That way they could get it all in one quick place. Something that would cost like $15.95 or something for the bundle. Not a bunch of CD's on my personal shelf with 50 cd's of PDF's for me to print/burn on demand.
Last edited by jezter6; 14th November 2002 at 10:32 PM..
Bastion Press usually has a print and a pretty version, one with borders and oner without... Their free "Norse Gods" PDF for example has both. I believe others rae going towards this model.
Dark Quest has done that for our last two releases... which means Natural 20 Press has done that for a few more
There are others.
Although it does increase the download size considerably. I think people are willing to accept the added size for the extra option.
Well, it's not much different than me going and ordering them for one of my customers without a credit card. I would have that file somewhere on my system. Of course, I wasn't talking about the whole stock of inventory...that's just crazy. And honestly, I wouldn't have the space for such a venture.
I was speaking more of CD's for my shelves that are for sale, like a malhavoc CD that would have all 3 boem's and banewarrens on it. That way they could get it all in one quick place.
Pretty much what I believe James had at Gen Con.
CDs from certain of the publishers and "fantasy assortment" type CDs from multiple publishers.
Originally posted by jezter6 Well, it's not much different than me going and ordering them for one of my customers without a credit card. I would have that file somewhere on my system.
Way to many legal issues to deal with here... so I'm going going to touch that. There is a difference between giving permsion to do something and someone just doing it. There is also the fact that I don't own any rights to this material I sell - you'd have to have contracts with each publisher unless I do for the express purpose...
Oh, I forgot to mention, if you want to check out the quality of the POD service we're testing, you can do so here:
At no point was I saying that I would or wanted to host the PDF's locally, just to clear that up. That's your job.
As for contacting them, hopefully some can venture into this post and see what they think of the bundles. I'm just not sure how well they would go, and not sure I would want to keep CD's like that on the shelf.
I do like the BoD/PoD option, and would rather work with you on something like that. That way we both make our share of the money, and the publisher gets their share too.
One of the biggest drawbacks to pdf sales is the direction of its marketing. It is almost entirely Internet driven sales. While I do not have the available data I would venture to say that a significant percentage of consumers do not use the Net to influence their buying decisions. To exceed the "usual and declining" sales trend, marketing techniques need to move beyond the box thinking. Pdf publishers have to be willing to try new ideas to make their products more visible and to reach a wider audience. I think some of the suggestions posted in this thread are good starts but the elusive "Eureka! That's it!" idea has yet to be found. The pdf publisher that figures that one out will be the envy of the gaming industry.
PDF files have been something of a "strange beast" in the regards that they do have a certain conception among the general public of being not good enough for print. The variety in quality (with many being not so good) doesn't help with perception either.
The average consumer does not understand nor does he care about the investment required for a publisher to manufacture a product for print only to see the lion's share of his margins eaten up in operational and overhead expenses. The average consumer only looks at it in terms of his cost and his use. To him, a $5.00 pdf is a great deal until he has to print it out. Depending on the amount of color, borders, and excessive graphics present in the pdf, the customer may find that printing that pdf may very well drain a print cartridge. If this happens, suddenly the $5.00 pdf winds up costing $35.00 because he now has to buy a new printer cartridge. Many publishers (like Bastion Press) have started to take steps to get around some of these issues but it has not completely resolved them.
If a retail operation was to print and sell pdfs, they would quickly find themselves in the same boat regarding cartridge use. If the retailer sells the pdf and then offers to print it for a nominal fee (say $5.00) then the consumer has already invested at least half the cost of the average printed product (going with an average of $19.99 here). So from the consumer stand point, he's back at the view of "why am I paying so much for this product that was supposed to be so cheap? If I am paying this much then I want a more professionally printed and bound product."
Until pdf publishers can package their pdf products in such a way where all art can be turned off with the click of a mouse, I believe there will be an uphill battle for acceptance among the general public. It could very well be that working deals with FLGS can help turn that corner, but you have still have to consider the backlash that may come from them when they see what costs are involved in printing those products for the consumer. I could quickly see a situation where a dealer charges the cost of the pdf plus $15-$20 to print the full pdf (color and illustrations included). See the potential for abuse and consumer backlash here? Granted, this is strictly a hypothetical speculation but it should be a concern.
"I am he who rules the world, don't you know? One little piece at a time. I am the stuff of Riordan Parnell's most outrageous songs, and I am a confused memory for those whose lives I've entered and departed." -- Jarlaxle, Road of the Patriarch
I totally agree. I was definately mis-understating the costs of PoD service on this. I'm glad that there are print companies willing to take this cost on and offer it so cheap to guys like james.
I will definately not want to do PoD in my store after seeing these threads, but will look at ordering from RPGnow. Of course, the only problem here is the wait (1-2 weeks) for delivery.
I'm still at a loss as to how to offer PDF's to my customers locally who don't want to wait for a PoD or CD to be mailed to them, but also don't have a decent internet connection or credit card to do it at home.
Originally posted by Erik Mona
No legitimate print publisher I'm aware of feels "lucky" to sell 1000 copies. In fact, I strongly doubt that a product that sells 1000 copies is even profitable.
I think it's safer to say that smaller publishers would feel "lucky" to sell 2000-3000 copies, and mid-tier d20 companies regularly sell 3000 or more copies, and would view 1000 copies sold a failure.
[/b]
Well...it all depends.
If you keep costs down (go with the cheapest printing options, pay half the typical pro rates for writing and art, do a lot of the work yourself without pay) and charge enough, you may be able scrape by around 1000 copies in initial sales on an RPG book.
I'm working on an article for d20Weekly that provides a spreadsheet for a printed D20 product. Folks (assuming d20Weekly likes it) will be able to download it, change the inputs (what if the price is $2 more? what if we pay 2 cents per word instead of 4? what if we use larger type so we average 500 words per page instead of 650 or 750?), and see the bottom-line impact on the break-even point and maximum potential profit from the printing.
The demo hardcopy idea is a great one, and yet another reason for such a product to ally itself with a larger print publisher - who might want to arrange in addition to single sales adding such a cd into a backsleeve of another product as an "enhanced limited edition" copy or something.
This is the very thing I have spoken to one of the bigger publishers about. What if you were to bundle a CD with every printed product? On this CD would be a complete pdf file of the same product along with a couple of freebies or intros to other products. Perhaps it would contain files to use the product with Campaign Suite or PCGen. Is this costly? Probably initially. Would the long term benefits in added sales outweigh the cost? That's anyone's guess. Yes, I know Auran does this, but it's not the same as I am proposing. Personally, I know I would be willing to pay more for such a product.
"I am he who rules the world, don't you know? One little piece at a time. I am the stuff of Riordan Parnell's most outrageous songs, and I am a confused memory for those whose lives I've entered and departed." -- Jarlaxle, Road of the Patriarch
This is the very thing I have spoken to one of the bigger publishers about. What if you were to bundle a CD with every printed product? On this CD would be a complete pdf file of the same product along with a couple of freebies or intros to other products. Perhaps it would contain files to use the product with Campaign Suite or PCGen. Is this costly? Probably initially. Would the long term benefits in added sales outweigh the cost? That's anyone's guess. Yes, I know Auran does this, but it's not the same as I am proposing. Personally, I know I would be willing to pay more for such a product.
I've been working on some deals to get free trials of CS on CDs with hardcover print products. Would include the needed information for CS as well. To pay for it, I'll be selling advertising space on the CDs.
Originally posted by jezter6 At no point was I saying that I would or wanted to host the PDF's locally, just to clear that up. That's your job.
As for contacting them, hopefully some can venture into this post and see what they think of the bundles. I'm just not sure how well they would go, and not sure I would want to keep CD's like that on the shelf.
I do like the BoD/PoD option, and would rather work with you on something like that. That way we both make our share of the money, and the publisher gets their share too.
I don't think any of these options are viable in the current model. Other than your own integrity, what forces you to delete the PDF after the BOD/POD? How do you know one of your employees isn't keeping them for himself? When I speculated on this a ways back I suggested someone would have to create a Point of Sales machine that connected to the internet, had a printer and/or cd burner. With secure transactions it would download the PDF, do the print or burn and delete it after a day. The operator would not be able to access the hard drive.
As for CDs on display in the store, why would we want these to look cheap? You can get CDs with 4 color booklets and screened CD in lots of 100s to 1000s for practically no money per copy. If this were going into more than one FLGS, I hope they would be real CDs, not CD-Rs. Make up some kind of display with an 8 page manual containing the advertising of the product. This way, the reason the store owner is honest is because he wants to move the CDs.
The other problem here is duplication: would Call of Duty and Forgotten Heroes: Paladin show up on the same CD?
Originally posted by Ghostwind The average consumer only looks at it in terms of his cost and his use. To him, a $5.00 pdf is a great deal until he has to print it out. Depending on the amount of color, borders, and excessive graphics present in the pdf, the customer may find that printing that pdf may very well drain a print cartridge. If this happens, suddenly the $5.00 pdf winds up costing $35.00 because he now has to buy a new printer cartridge.
Indeed, the distribution of PDFs instead of printed products (books) inverts the typical economics. Typically, a publishing house uses its economies of scale to drive printing costs down to a level at which it can make a profit selling books in the (say) $20 range.
Small publishers cannot afford to have products printed, nor can they generate economies of scale. So, they distribute electronically (PDFs) and pass the cost of printing along to their customers. Of course, the customer can just read the PDF on a screen, but that is not optimal for many products - especially gaming products that often have handouts or maps. Even a purely crunchy product will often need to be shown to the DM for approval, something that is expressly forbidden by the PDF's terms of sale! i.e., you're not supposed to be sharing PDFs electronically, just like other software.
PDFs are only a bargain until you try to use them, it seems.
Side note - I wonder how many people print PDFs at their place of work? We know a lot of people surf the web at work when they should be, um, working. Do people also abuse their workplace printers? (I picture the office manager saying, "Aargh! That's the third time this week the color printer has run out of toner.")
Morrus, why not offer a service like RPGnow on your own site? You have the exposure, why not explore those possibilities? I'm sure a lot of PDF publishers would love to have their PDFs available through your site...
As for the technical aspects, you'll need someone that knows how to utilize php (i'm not it, i'm currently developing three sites at the same time) and more importantly, knows how to effectively use the free resources that sites such as Sourceforge offer. Php isn't difficult, i'm still a novice and certainly not a genius and i'm already seeing very intresting possibilities that could be incorporated into such a site...
As for Printing On Demand, you have A3 printers from HP for as low as $2000 retail, you add a duplex unit and buy a big stapler and your set for POD. Anything else you add is pure luxury. You could use a good inkjet for color covers, but a color laser is prefered for the covers, one is available for as low as $1000.
__________________ The Helix - Datahaven When cutting edge isn't sharp enough. I will not accept that. No regret.
Originally posted by JERandall Side note - I wonder how many people print PDFs at their place of work? We know a lot of people surf the web at work when they should be, um, working. Do people also abuse their workplace printers? (I picture the office manager saying, "Aargh! That's the third time this week the color printer has run out of toner.")
*chuckles* That's why those printers are there, to print you know ;-)
I work at a bank at the ICT department, i don't really mind if people print some things for private use. I do mind people that print each and every email they get just to read it and throw it away, it's not called Electronic Mail for nothing! [/rant]
__________________ The Helix - Datahaven When cutting edge isn't sharp enough. I will not accept that. No regret.
As far as printed pdf's go, I'm very pleased with simple black&white prints off a laser printer. I've done this with Bastion's "Minions: Rebirth". I printed the version without borders in this way, and actually, I think it's looking better than the original :rolleyes:.
Originally posted by Ghostwind This is the very thing I have spoken to one of the bigger publishers about. What if you were to bundle a CD with every printed product? On this CD would be a complete pdf file of the same product along with a couple of freebies or intros to other products. Perhaps it would contain files to use the product with Campaign Suite or PCGen
Now, **that's** a smart idea. Hardcopy publishers already provide web support of their material, including material that couldn't make it (ie. were cost-prohibitive) into the book. This would go on the CD. And this would also prompt the purchaser to actually put the CD into his drive and open it. Then he'd also browse the freebies and intro product -- of not only your PDF material, but upcoming releases by the same publisher. Much cheaper to put a full-page color ad into a CD than in the hardcopy or a magazine. **And** the purchaser wouldn't mind see it, since said ad doesn't take up precious space in the hardcopy.
Okay, here's how everyone benefits (:
* Original PDF publishers & PDF sales site: Greater exposure of products.
* Hardcopy publisher: Customers do not need to go to site for a download. Publisher can put in material that would be cost-prohibitive for the hardcopy. Customers **know** websites are more current than CDs, so would still go to the publisher's site.
* Retailers & distributors: No shelving, no stocking, no orders, no risks. Taken out of the loop.
* Customers: Probably wouldn't notice any slight price change (to cover costs of cutting a CD), since game prices don't make sense, anyway!
Originally posted by jezter6 I will definately not want to do PoD in my store after seeing these threads, but will look at ordering from RPGnow. Of course, the only problem here is the wait (1-2 weeks) for delivery.
When we're up and running with our POD service, no product would be offered up for POD unless it's pre-paid for and thus probably on our shelf already. So in most cases delivery would be no worse then your namel distributor (2-4 days).
Originally posted by Ghostwind What if you were to bundle a CD with every printed product? On this CD would be a complete pdf file of the same product along with a couple of freebies or intros to other products. Perhaps it would contain files to use the product with Campaign Suite or PCGen.
We have something like this already which is burned along with any CD order from RPGNow.com - a lot of good demo software plus copies of OPENRPG and such (I suppose I should talk with PCGen too)... anyway, RPGShop.com sends out over 100 packages a week and could use these CD's as stuffers if there was a way to get the publishers from RPGNow to contribute to the manufacturing costs of the CD. I think last I checked it was about $1 per cd to get a thousand together - Chris from Twin Rose might know more current numbers.
It would certainly help get the CD's into the hands of print book purchasers... but regretfully, most of MY customers are already on the internet. So ideally we should consider promotion on Aldo's Game Play CD ( http://www.impressionsadv.net/gameplay.html ), but that's costly and no guarentee that shop owners are even passing it out... humm.
I guess it comes down to the fact that we could use a sponsor to create the CD's. Like maybe WOTC doing a d20 Modern promo on them and the rest being used by PDF promotions for products at RPGNow.com and then either RPGShop.com absorbing the price of packing and shipping them or get a deal with distributors (like the Gaming Herald did. http://www.gamingherald.com ).
James
Last edited by rpghost; 15th November 2002 at 12:39 AM..
Just pick out whatever you want to buy, then add this item to your cart and you'll get both the download links and a CD in the mail sent via Priority Mail!
:rolleyes:
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