Originally posted by Ghostwind Until pdf publishers can package their pdf products in such a way where all art can be turned off with the click of a mouse, I believe there will be an uphill battle for acceptance among the general public.
Washu's First Law of Technology: The first use of a technology will be to duplicate an already existing one.
Washu's Second Law of Technology: The first mistake of a technology will be to duplicate an already existing one.
I'd like to separate PDF products into two ends of a spectrum: Those that attempt to emulate existing books, and those which take advantage of electronic technology. Us consumers (: had a discussion about PDFs, and the consensus was that a) we don't like printing out books (surprise), but b) we **would** like reference sheets, worksheets, and terrain we can use -- multipel times -- to prepare games.
For example, I'm currently reviewing some GM game aids, which are pregenerated NPCs. In preparing for an adventure, I would rather have the one or two NPCs I selected, rather than bringing the entire book. It would have been much better had the book been in electronic format, with one page per character. I could then print out only the NPCs I wanted and bring them to the game. Likewise, battlemaps are great PDF game aids. Instead of storing a stack of different-shaped cardstock, I can just print out what battlemaps I'll be using for the adventure, mark them up during play, and have the option of throwing them away later.
PDFs are only a bargain until you try to use them, it seems.
Side note - I wonder how many people print PDFs at their place of work? We know a lot of people surf the web at work when they should be, um, working. Do people also abuse their workplace printers? (I picture the office manager saying, "Aargh! That's the third time this week the color printer has run out of toner.")
I can contribute my own experience here : I print PDFs only at my place of work. My home printer is so lame I wouldn't even think about printing it at home.
First I used to print them straight out, one page per page if you see what I mean. I ended up with bucket loads of paper that couldn't be cleanly stapled, so I dropped that. Now I print them in a both-sides / 2-page per page option which cuts the paper by 4 and makes them a lot easier to handle.
However, large PDF files tend to clog the printer with this option and I then have to print 4 pages at a time which is a pain (and not very discreet either...)
Something tells me the number of people printing at work is significant...
Tomorrow, I print Death and FCTF. Yay ! More reading in the train !
When we're up and running with our POD service, no product would be offered up for POD unless it's pre-paid for and thus probably on our shelf already. So in most cases delivery would be no worse then your namel distributor (2-4 days).
James
Once it's up and running like that James, you and I are going to have to make a deal.
Also, I can talk to some of the other FLGS guys that are friendly with me and see what they have to say...we'll have to look at commission based sales, heheheheh.
That's 1.7 mb for just 100 fantasy products though. Yikes. Is that really going to help anyone? Sounds more trouble then going to the site. Maybe it would work to include on a CD.
CD INCLUDES:
-CD Replication Process
-5 Color Silk Screen Print to Disk
-Standdard Jewel Case w/
black or clear tray
-Product Assembly
-Shrinkwrap (if applicable)
-Two Panel with Tray Card 4/1
1 - 200 Cd's: $4.93 per
300 Cd's: $4.09 per CD
500 Cd's: $2.61 per CD
1,000 Cd's $1.19 per CD
1,500 Cd's: $1.17 per CD
2,000 Cd's: $1.12 per CD
3,000 Cd's: $1.09 per CD
5,000 Cd's: $.99 per CD
10,000 Cd's: .91˘ per CD
50,000 Cd's: .89˘ per CD
100,000: .72˘ per CD
And without cases:
INCLUDES:
-Duplication/Replication Process
-5 Color Silk Screen Print to Disk
(in Bulk)
-$150 Setup fee for 1-500 CD's
1 to 200 Cd's: $2.50 per CD
300 Cd's: $2.00 per CD
500 Cd's: $1.50 per CD
1,000 Cd's $.92˘ per CD
1,500 Cd's: $.90˘ per CD
2,000 Cd's: $.82˘ per CD
3,000 Cd's: $.81˘ per CD
5,000 Cd's: .79˘ per CD
10,000 Cd's: .56˘ per CD
50,000 Cd's: .47˘ per CD
100,000: .39˘ per CD
So the right idea would be to bundle publishers together so no one has to take the big hit on starting up the disk, beg and deal a place on a larger publisher's vehicle, and then spread out the profits to everyone involved, right? The larger publishers could bundle everything up with a brightly ready-recognized logo on front and include some of their own material maybe? The only issue can immediately see is the quality control issue, though with Paizo running Polyhedron now so I can see them having a lot of reasons to include a hodgepodge of poducts with a lot of different ideas on their brand label perhaps? Maybe something worked out with a Polyhedron Annual??? Polyhedron Bi-Yearly CD Enhancements?
Ooh, I like the idea of something worked out in an annual. Good for Dragon or Dungeon and good for the publishers, if it includes lots of good free stuff.
Well, the idea wouldn't be that there would be "free stuff" in it, just that the cost of material would be all bundled in a way that would make more sense to your average game store consumer. If Polyhedron dished out even a 15-20 dollar "annual with cd enhancement" I imagine that it would sell enough to justify it's cost increase just on the merits of "whoa..something different from Poly!"
This is all very cool. Here's some perspective from a prospective buyer.
Monte's stuff...bought it all. Why? Because of it's excellent quality. This stuff is automatic. I also bought it because I got to reaffirm that quality on Monte's website before I bought it. Finally, I got it because I'm a gaming GEEK, and I'm more than willing to pay the extra money just to get it early (before the book). I can't WAIT to get new, good gaming stuff!
Haven't looked seriously at the other pdf's for the same reasons:
1) Fear of poor quality (no reputation).
2) Lack of an ability to review/test the material.
3) Not sure it makes a difference if I get it early.
I think RPGNow would significantly increase it's buyers, if you could download snippets of the pdfs for free. Just like in the book market, there's so much crap out there and TONS of it is not very good quality. Then you find little diamonds in the rough (thank you Bad Axe Games) that are awesome. Something I'd never purchase if I didn't get a chance to read through it, and test it out.
I also LOVE the idea of 30 - 50 pdf's on a CD, all of reasonable to excellent quality, sold in stores for $35 - $50. That would ROCK! Obviously, don't do it, until your pdf has "run it's course" in sales.
Good luck to all the publishers, and keep up the good work. The rest of us 10,000 potential customers will eventually come around!
Originally posted by ashockney I think RPGNow would significantly increase it's buyers, if you could download snippets of the pdfs for free. Just like in the book market, there's so much crap out there and TONS of it is not very good quality.
Most publishers do provide you with a link right in the product description to examples/demos.
Is that hard to find? Should we make it a more standard button that is easliy seen and in a standard location at the top and try to require it for all products?
I think $35-50 might be putting a little too much faith in the buying power of the consumer who'd have to make a choice between a bundle of pdf products and a "real" dead tree print product. I don't think the average gaming consumer spends more than $50-100 each month on game products and forcing them to choose between the latest product from WOTC and your own product seems pretty futile. On the other hand, if you can get your hands on the rest of that $50...
Most publishers do provide you with a link right in the product description to examples/demos.
Is that hard to find? Should we make it a more standard button that is easliy seen and in a standard location at the top and try to require it for all products?
James
I do think that a nice colored button somewhere near the top of the page would definately go a long way to help promote those products.
Originally posted by James Heard Well, the idea wouldn't be that there would be "free stuff" in it, just that the cost of material would be all bundled in a way that would make more sense to your average game store consumer. If Polyhedron dished out even a 15-20 dollar "annual with cd enhancement" I imagine that it would sell enough to justify it's cost increase just on the merits of "whoa..something different from Poly!"
That's certainly a valid idea, but I was tying it back to some of the earlier threads.
If you provided a nice sample of the free PDFs out there (thus directly benefitting Dragon/Dungeon readers) and in addition provided nice full-color covers, descriptions, tables of contents, maybe even sample pages, and possibly reviews from PDFs for sale then you'd potentially be opening up the market considerably. The free stuff, of course, would be stuff from publishers in exchange for the ad space, and could be things they're already giving away for free or, if they don't have such, perhaps a few pages from a pay PDF (a couple of PrCs or such).
Originally posted by jezter6 I do think that a nice colored button somewhere near the top of the page would definately go a long way to help promote those products.
Ok, consider it done. I added it and all publishers will have to update thier products to include a url to their demos, but eventually it'll look like this one:
Originally posted by Fast Learner If you provided a nice sample of the free PDFs out there (thus directly benefitting Dragon/Dungeon readers) and in addition provided nice full-color covers, descriptions, tables of contents, maybe even sample pages, and possibly reviews from PDFs for sale then you'd potentially be opening up the market considerably.
Go idea in general... but to do a blow in for Dragon or Dungeon you have to do so for all issues printed. That's 50,000 issues for Dragon. Even at that quantity it's going to cost at least $15,000 to make the CDs and that's if Dragon agrees to blow it in for free. Just not doable.
Now if there was some sponsor (WOTC d20 Modern) or something like that out there that would join in to produce a CD then we'd be willing to try something like that. But we certainly can't afford the lion share of that price tag.
Ok, consider it done. I added it and all publishers will have to update thier products to include a url to their demos, but eventually it'll look like this one:
Well, I would think that it would be up to the publishers to foot the bill on that pricetag james. Even then, if divided in appropriate manner, most of the larger companies would probably willing to put in a grand or so to do this. With you guys putting in a little to be a sponsor (that way everyone who gets the CD knows to go to RPGNow to purchase PDF's) I think would be a great exposure...
Just depends on how much they want to do it, and how many publishers are willing to put in.
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