WOW!!! This is very insightful. I would never have guessed I would have gotten this kind of response from everyone in the industry. I graciously thank all of you for you input. And who would have thought that such a simple question could even provoke RPGNow to rearrange their website.
Now to provoke even more input along the same lines. Is there some sort of guideline that people should follow when pricing their PDF's? Let's say you have a 120 page PDF, with some amazing artwork. For the example, you also intend on packaging a second book with it for the non-graphic lovers and for those who would like to print without all the color use. Now what would be a good pricing point for this book. Also, what if you include A4 sizing for the Europeans - or more accurately, everyone smart enought to get over the damn American measurement system . Now what are we looking at in price? Actually, I suppose one would have to package the two separately so that the file size didn't exceed a gig . Ok, so maybe it isn't quite a gig.
I would really like to know what kind of pricing people are looking for.
Kent Cramer
Co-Founder of Khan's Press
a soon to be d20 Publisher at large
I'll take a stab at an answer to that last question, strictly on the view of a consumer.
The first PDF product I bought was Monte Cook's Book of Eldritch Might. I don't recall the exact number of pages, but subsequent products were, iirc, around a hundred pages or so, and the price was a flat five dollars. This seemed about right to me. Using that as a standard, products with less pages should cost less, like two or three dollars for a 64-page product or so. I can deal with the new standard of $6.95 products being sold for what would have been $5 a year or so ago, but anything more and I become leery. Ive seen some products from virtually unknown companies that costed $10, and that price was enough to make me back away from going out on a limb.
Again, these are just average opinions from your average consumer of PDFs.
Last edited by Alzrius; 15th November 2002 at 07:54 AM..
So far, it doesn't appear that providing multiple copies of the same document in the .zip file of a book increases the price at all - whether someone is buying a 120 page PDF, or four 120 page PDFs (one with & without graphics, one A4 sized each with & without graphics), they are still getting the same product in their mind and thus the price remains the same.
The multiple copies is a price we as the publishers have to swallow when making the PDF in exchange for better sales. Mutliple copies made in this manner are NOT a lot of extra work (after all, each one just involves changing the master page template before running it through distiller in my case), so the price really doesn't go up with each one included.
Also remember that the average reader doesn't want a 100+ page PDF product as it is VERY difficult to print at that size (print spools for graphical PDFs on the average printer for a large PDF can be insane) and hard to flip through once printed if it isn't bound also, which is an additional cost to the buyer.
For an Ambient Inc product, I would price that package you described near $6.95, but that also depends on the amount of money spent on artwork.
__________________
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www.DREADGAZEBO.com
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I don't recall the exact number of pages, but subsequent products were, iirc, around a hundred pages or so, and the price was a flat five dollars.
Actually, Malhavoc increased the price of supplements at the beginning of 2002... If Thoughts Could Kill lists at $7, Book of Eldritch Might II also (and that's on special), and Book of Eldritch Might III lists at $9. The flat $5 supplement was only for Monte's initial PDF release of The Book of Eldritch Might I as far as I know.
__________________
The man they said would cause too much controversy for the ENnies - now running for judge!
www.DREADGAZEBO.com
One site with all my gaming stuff
CyberPunk, Star Frontiers, HeroQuest, deadEarth and GunPorn
Originally posted by HellHound The multiple copies is a price we as the publishers have to swallow when making the PDF in exchange for better sales. Mutliple copies made in this manner are NOT a lot of extra work (after all, each one just involves changing the master page template before running it through distiller in my case), so the price really doesn't go up with each one included.
It depends on how things are done. True if it is just a single master template it is effecting it probably changes little. Although there are other cases, such as changes to artwork on the page and the like that can eat into time. Of course that only matters if the layout person is getting money based on time.
Originally posted by Pharaun Also, what if you include A4 sizing for the Europeans - or more accurately, everyone smart enought to get over the damn American measurement system .
Kent Cramer
Co-Founder of Khan's Press
a soon to be d20 Publisher at large
I doubt anyone would pay extra for that or really be that fussed. Acrobat lets you rescale stuff to fit the printer so it isn't too much of a problem. Be nice but not the greatest of selling points.
I doubt anyone would pay extra for that or really be that fussed. Acrobat lets you rescale stuff to fit the printer so it isn't too much of a problem. Be nice but not the greatest of selling points.
One of my PDFs was released in both versions. I've heard no response on this.
Originally posted by Pharaun WOW!!! This is very insightful. I would never have guessed I would have gotten this kind of response from everyone in the industry. I graciously thank all of you for you input. And who would have thought that such a simple question could even provoke RPGNow to rearrange their website.
Now to provoke even more input along the same lines. Is there some sort of guideline that people should follow when pricing their PDF's? Let's say you have a 120 page PDF, with some amazing artwork. For the example, you also intend on packaging a second book with it for the non-graphic lovers and for those who would like to print without all the color use. Now what would be a good pricing point for this book. Also, what if you include A4 sizing for the Europeans - or more accurately, everyone smart enought to get over the damn American measurement system . Now what are we looking at in price? Actually, I suppose one would have to package the two separately so that the file size didn't exceed a gig . Ok, so maybe it isn't quite a gig.
I would really like to know what kind of pricing people are looking for.
Kent Cramer
Co-Founder of Khan's Press
a soon to be d20 Publisher at large
I would use Malhavoc's products (specifically Monte's Books of Eldritch Might) as a guide, since they are consistently bestsellers and have a range of sizes and prices.
Book of Eldritch Might ($5.00 for 36 pages)
Book of Eldritch Might II ($7.00 for 64 pages)
Book of Eldritch Might III ($9.00 for 96 pages)
And yes they are on "special" but it seems they've always been at those prices, so I don't really consider it a sale. And somehow I doubt they will go back up. Maybe Monte can confirm or deny that. In any case, Monte's stuff is the standard du jour. (And I highly recommend it all. The only thing that hurts his sales are the customers like myself who prefer to wait for the printed version)
Page count isn't the only thing, but it's the main thing, since it usually correlates with your costs and will certainly be considered by the consumer when evaluating the price, just like that's one of the main things you look when buying printed books.
I don't know much about your product, but I'd use $11 as a baseline and adjust it as you see fit. Price it too much less and you won't make money, price it too much more and you'll receive less than stunning reviews, and will probably make less money than you could have. (But you will probably still make a profit if your product is good, price doesn't seem to be the primary reason people buy a PDF, it's the perception of quality and usefulness, IMO)
Of course, if this is your premier product, pricing low might be a good idea to generate some buzz. Even if it doesn't make money, the heightened sales and better reviews could be worth the loss of revenue, if you've got some extra capital to pay for the next book.
Edit: Jason has a lot of good points as well. 120 page PDFs are a tough sell. And there is a psychological barrier when pricing things at $10 or above. You may want to split it up into two books, if the subject matter allows it.
Good luck.
__________________ James Garr
Last edited by Gargoyle; 15th November 2002 at 03:30 PM..
I doubt anyone would pay extra for that or really be that fussed. Acrobat lets you rescale stuff to fit the printer so it isn't too much of a problem. Be nice but not the greatest of selling points.
I agree on this point. People are much more concerned about whether they can actually use the product in their game without too much revision than such features. Usefulness is the main factor. That's why companies like Natural 20 Press, Ambient, and Malhavoc rock. They create stuff that is instantly useful and solid, ruleswise.
One of my PDFs was released in both versions. I've heard no response on this.
Considering what the "official" stats of American buyers to European buys has been on print products, I imagine a similar stat would be on the PDF material... possibly even hampered more by paypal issues with overseas, and rpgnows credit card steps for overseas. I'm willing to guess that out of a any 200 sales, you probably saw less than 20 european buyers. With a usual vocal rate of less than 5% on any topic... you might hear from 1.... and that 1 is usually there to give negative feedback if any. So... not hearing anything is actually expected on postive things.
Originally posted by tensen Considering what the "official" stats of American buyers to European buys has been on print products, I imagine a similar stat would be on the PDF material... possibly even hampered more by paypal issues with overseas, and rpgnows credit card steps for overseas. I'm willing to guess that out of a any 200 sales, you probably saw less than 20 european buyers. With a usual vocal rate of less than 5% on any topic... you might hear from 1.... and that 1 is usually there to give negative feedback if any. So... not hearing anything is actually expected on postive things.
Good point. The next "pay" PDF I do I'll try this again. It wasn't a huge amount of work.
Originally posted by tensen
I'm willing to guess that out of a any 200 sales, you probably saw less than 20 european buyers. With a usual vocal rate of less than 5% on any topic... you might hear from 1.... and that 1 is usually there to give negative feedback if any. So... not hearing anything is actually expected on postive things.
I think that is just some sort of cultural difference between Europeans and Americans. We usually say what we think and don't hesitate to use harsh words. We'd never say something like "Oh, I really like that!" without really meaning it. I suppose, most Americans will perceive us as being unbelievably rude .
As far as letter vs. A4 format goes, I don't mind letter format myself. I usually use the "center" option while printing the stuff. This will be only a problem in case the illustrations have low resolution, because then you may see some glitches due to the slight change in image size. But most or the time it's okay as it is.
Last edited by Turjan; 15th November 2002 at 04:32 PM..
Originally posted by tensen ... and rpgnows credit card steps for overseas.
This is a misconception... RPGShop.com requires proof of card ownership, but RPGNow.com does not. Mainly cause if it's fraud we are only out processing charges and we can cancel the order and not pay the publisher. With RPGShop.com we sell physical product - with that comes an up front cost to us, a shipping cost, an the desire for fraud as you can re-sell physical products. No one is going to commit credit card fraud to buy an electronic product oversees - just no point in it. So we waive the requirements for overseas credit cards when just dealing with RPGNow.com
In fact, if you're a long time (6month+) customer of RPGNow.com we'll even waive these conditions for your EN World Shop orders.
This is a misconception... RPGShop.com requires proof of card ownership, but RPGNow.com does not. Mainly cause if it's fraud we are only out processing charges and we can cancel the order and not pay the publisher. With RPGShop.com we sell physical product - with that comes an up front cost to us, a shipping cost, an the desire for fraud as you can re-sell physical products. No one is going to commit credit card fraud to buy an electronic product oversees - just no point in it. So we waive the requirements for overseas credit cards when just dealing with RPGNow.com
James,
I'll apologize now. I am American so I don't see the effects.. I only had a few possible customers complain about it, which is why it got brought to my attention.
Aka... negative effects get heard more often then postive....
how often do you hear, "Wow, that was so easy..." other than followed with.. "not like such and such place.. they...."
Originally posted by Gargoyle I would use Malhavoc's products (specifically Monte's Books of Eldritch Might) as a guide, since they are consistently bestsellers and have a range of sizes and prices.
Book of Eldritch Might ($5.00 for 36 pages)
Book of Eldritch Might II ($7.00 for 64 pages)
Book of Eldritch Might III ($9.00 for 96 pages)
For lazy, curious people, this works out to be
BoEM 1: $0.14 per page
BoEM 2: $0.11 per page
BoEM 3: $0.09 per page
I think comparing page counts between printed books and PDFs is kind of goofy. The whole point of a PDF is that the electronic format makes per page printing costs irrelevant. But, if you must compare, here are the numbers, using the WotC suggested retail prices.
core
PH: 288 pages, $29.95, $0.10 per page DMG: 224 pages, $29.95, $0.13 per page MM: 224 pages, $29.95, $0.13 per page
hardcover
PsiH: 160 pages, $26.95, $0.17 per page
FRCS: 320 pages, $39.95, $0.12 per page
MotP: 224 pages, $29.95, $0.13 per page
It looks like about $0.13 per page is the standard price for a WotC hardcover. I assume the PH is deliberately underpriced or is cheaper per page because it's larger. However, FRCS is not much cheaper despite greater length.
The PsiH is more expensive per page because it's much shorter. And the paperbacks are much more expensive per page; higher costs per page to produce the shorter books, or WotC making up money on the supplements, or a little of both.
Well, the PH can be cheaper because of the vast sales figures, thereby making production cheap. A campaign setting is much more limited as far as expected sales go, and the splatbooks were considered to appeal to even less customers.
Originally posted by tensen It depends on how things are done. True if it is just a single master template it is effecting it probably changes little. Although there are other cases, such as changes to artwork on the page and the like that can eat into time. Of course that only matters if the layout person is getting money based on time.
There are tools that let you edit whole pdfs at a time, you can decrease the dpi count for all images (a cool trick to remove all images is to set it at 0dpi). Or make color images into grey or even B&W images. One of the must have tools for Acrobat is Enfocus Pitstop Profesional 5.0, it has lots of useful features...
__________________ The Helix - Datahaven When cutting edge isn't sharp enough. I will not accept that. No regret.
"The whole point of a PDF is that the electronic format makes per page printing costs irrelevant."
True. But the trade off is the very small number of sales compared to a print product. What you gain on the hobby-horse (low capitol expenditure) you lose on the swings (low gross sales). Then there are artist and author fees (both based on volume) that splits a very small pie even more. Even before the vendor's commission gets taken off, most products are looking at gross profit numbers that make panhandling look attractive.
I might be mistaken, but I am under the impression that the vendor's fee for PDF products is static. It doesn't decrease with large runs. So even if you can't finesse the economies of scale if you think that you have a (relative) hit on your hands.
Also, there is an upper limit of what can be considered a reasonable download, so you can't decrease your price/page ratio by adding another 34 pages to a 100 page PDF without losing sales.
All in all I don't think that it is fair to compare the costs of print vs. pdf as if they were on a level playing field. Nor do I think that price/page is a fair comparison between the two products.
Mike
PS I think that Price per page is a scam in reviews as well. Value per page is more important, IMO. But that's a seperate issue.
Cheers.
I think that with the extremely small volume of sales for PDF products (Monte, as always excepted) author and artist fees become the bulk of the capitol expense and the rest of the investment is time. If
Last edited by MThibault; 15th November 2002 at 08:02 PM..
I'm curious as to the costs of selling your pdf's through RPGnow. Is it a flat fee per pdf, a monthly fee, a data transfer fee, startup plus one of the previous items, etc? I went looking on the site and didn't see anything while I was there (may not have looked int he right place).
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