What kind of Sales can you expect from PDF?

[MEG Hal]

Originally posted by Erik Mona
RPGHost said:

Perhaps print publishers can tell me I'm wrong (I only know what people tell me), but I think there's still a VERY wide circulation gap between PDF and print publishing.

--Erik Mona

You are not wrong there is a tremendous gap and we will release items a pdf but print is where the numbers are, Monte Cook and some of Nat20's stuff are a rare few not the norm.

Our numbers for our first pdf Interludes was reallt good until we announced print sales then it dropped fast. We are still #23 or so on top list and we prolly sold around 175 copies. Now our free release "sold" almost 100 in first month just at RPGNow.com and we have it posted at a number of sites including our own, so that was a huge difference, prolly 400+ in first 30 days.

[philreed]

Originally posted by Morrus
Interestingly, Phil Read says he's sold 170 copies of 101 Spellbooks, but it's not on the list. That means either the list is screwy (which I have suspected in the past) or that he's sellng a lot of copies in places other than RPGNow.

On RPGNow I've sold (as of this moment) 156 copies of this one. 135 copies of the Mundane Treasures on RPGNow and 75 copies of Arcane Spell Components on RPGNow.

On RPGNet I've only sold 1 each of Spellbooks and Treasures.

On my own site I've sold 15 Spellbooks, 5 Treasures, and 28 components.

None of these have been out for two months yet. (Spellbooks will be 2 months old November 17.)

I hope that helps everyone gauge how well PDFs are doing.

[Morrus]

[Erik, I deleted one of your posts because you double-posted by mistake].

One question which occurs to me, and which is probably the most pertinent to current PDF publishers, is how to combat the growing glut. Over the last year, sales of any given product have halved (that's a rough figure), and as time passes, they'll get less.

One thing to do is make sure you put out more products. I'm aiming at one a month right now, and total sales are still much the same that they were when I started with Wild Spellcraft all those months ago. But I can't go any faster than that, because in the current market, I'll just be competing with myself. Eventually, I'll have to change strategy again.

So, what can we do to increase sales on individual PDFs? here are some thoughts:

1) Try harder to "legitimise" PDF products. They are seen as more legit now than they were two years ago, and that will hopefully improve. Unfortunately, with the "glut" comes a large number of low-quality products, which can help to reduce that legitimacy. On average, with so many products available, the chances that the buyer will pick up something shoddy is much higher.

2) Does the fact that RPGNow pretty much has a monopoly make a difference? [Sorry, James...]. RPG.net tried to do the same and failed, and SVGames currently charges 50% or so on electronic sales, which kinda prices them out of the market. The other option is to sell them yourself, but then you lose RPGNow's publicity factor - that will matter to some less than others, of course. I've been in two-minds about it for ages.

3) How could info about PDF products be distributed better? How can we make sure that people hear about the good ones?

I'm sure there are other factors which escape me for the moment. But it is somethng which bothers me, having seen my own figures over the last 18 months. I feel kinda sorry for anyone joining in now - they missed the heyday.

[Morrus]

Originally posted by philreed


On RPGNow I've sold (as of this moment) 156 copies of this one. 135 copies of the Mundane Treasures on RPGNow and 75 copies of Arcane Spell Components on RPGNow.

On RPGNet I've only sold 1 each of Spellbooks and Treasures.

On my own site I've sold 15 Spellbooks, 5 Treasures, and 28 components.

None of these have been out for two months yet. (Spellbooks will be 2 months old November 17.)

I hope that helps everyone gauge how well PDFs are doing.

Ah, cool. I'll amend my list accordingly, and just use the RPGNow figures (with others in parenthesis) so we're all comparing like-for-like.


2: 730 (TF&T)
4: 578 (Wild Spellcraft)
5: ~530 (Inns & Taverns)
6: 528 (LE1)
9: 450 (CG1)
10: 381 (4C2F)
13: 329 (Gar'Udok)
19: 232 (LE2)
26: 160 (Enchiridon)

Below #30:

156: 101 Spellbooks (+16 elsewhere)
152: Moon Elves (+55 or so lost figures...grrr...)
149: Everyone Else
146: Drow (+6 Print On Demand not counted)
135: 101 Treasures (+6 elsewhere)
125: Enchantment
121: Death: GotG
99: Bodies & Souls
75: 101 Components (+28 elsewhere)

[jmucchiello]

Originally posted by rpghost
So now you want little graphical arrows for it's volocity on the list? Is that really something a customer cares about? The lists are there to help draw attention to "popular" products, not to say X is better or being bought faster then Y.

Arrows! Even better than bullets!!! (I did compare it to Billboard, didn't I?)

Well, selling better means they are more popular almost by definition. Besides once you generate the page it is basically static and they wouldn't eat up too much disk space or bandwidth. They are a curiousity.

Rock on!
Joe

[philreed]

Below #30:

156: 101 Spellbooks
152: Moon Elves (+55 or so lost figures...grrr...)
149: Everyone Else
146: Drow (+6 Print On Demand not counted)
135: 101 Treasures
125: Enchantment
121: Death: GotG
99: Bodies & Souls
75: 101 Spell Components

[philreed]

I'm very happy to see people sharing numbers. When I released my first PDF all people would tell me is "50-100" and I couldn't find anyone to give me exact numbers.

This really helps!

[Morrus]

Originally posted by MThibault
I don't think that the Top 30 list is meaningless to consumers (and perhaps not to publishers, either).

It certainly isn't a direct indication of quality or current sales, but it does allow newcomers to get a quick list of works that might not currently be hot, but have been popular in the past. So if someone comes to RPG now, having just discovered Malhavoc Press, they will have a quick list at their fingertips that includes works from other publishers on other subjects that have been well received.

It could mean the difference between purchasing Dwarf Product A or Dwarf Product B, or cruising into a category that you hadn't intended to check out.

The problem with it is that all it shows is who was around when there weren't many PDF publishers. If you released a product a year ago, you're probably on that list; if you release it in early 2003 you're very unlikely to make it.

That doesn't help the consumer at all - it's just a list of the oldest products (with one or two exceptions). It also probably adversely affects current publishers who find it so much harder to get their product seen by people, which could well be better than anything on that list.

So a last 30 days option seems to me to be a much more accurate, and much fairer way to do it.

Those lists are as close to browsable shelf space outside of the catagories and current releases as exists on the site (as far as I can find). I can't help but think that removing the list (or shrinking it) will cut the sales of some products from a few per month to zero per month. It's not much difference, but you'd pull the product if you thought those few sales were beneath you.

But sales aside, it does add to the shopping experience for customers so I'm not sure that the decision to remove or contract the Best Sellers list should be taken lightly.

Again, I disagree. If you go into a music or video store, you never see shelves with the best-ever selling albums or videos. You see the "current chart". The mucis industry suffers the same problem that this one does - it's bloated. The number of sales required to reach #1 in the charts is vastly less than it was in, say, the 70s. So all you'd ever see in prominent places in music stores would be old Beatles and Michael Jackson albums, and nothing current.

[jmucchiello]

Originally posted by Morrus
1) Try harder to "legitimise" PDF products. They are seen as more legit now than they were two years ago, and that will hopefully improve. Unfortunately, with the "glut" comes a large number of low-quality products, which can help to reduce that legitimacy. On average, with so many products available, the chances that the buyer will pick up something shoddy is much higher.

There was talk about an ENnies category for PDFs is that still on for next year? Maybe you could promote them more in your reviews area. (No I don't know how you would do this. Perhaps a top-20 e-products list to go with your top-20 products page.)

2) Does the fact that RPGNow pretty much has a monopoly make a difference? [Sorry, James...]. RPG.net tried to do the same and failed, and SVGames currently charges 50% or so on electronic sales, which kinda prices them out of the market. The other option is to sell them yourself, but then you lose RPGNow's publicity factor - that will matter to some less than others, of course. I've been in two-minds about it for ages.

I think their "monopoly" is a benefit. It makes it easier to find stuff outside of your normal purchasing block. The market is so small that if RPGNow had a serious competitor it would become ugly.

Oh, and if we're doing corrections, I've had two sales since this morning. Guess my shameless plug helped.

[2WS-Steve]

Originally posted by Morrus


So, what can we do to increase sales on individual PDFs? here are some thoughts:

1) Try harder to "legitimise" PDF products. ...

2) Does the fact that RPGNow pretty much has a monopoly make a difference? [Sorry, James...]. ...

3) How could info about PDF products be distributed better? How can we make sure that people hear about the good ones?

I'm not sure how much the "glut" really factors into things. I buy PDFs fairly regularly and they're so cheap that having too many to choose from isn't a problem. I'm more concerned with just making sure I'll enjoy the product I buy.

One thing that might help is re-arranging the site layout a bit; you have maybe 30 products with cover face out then I can't even see the spine on the rest of them; I need to go digging through the site to find anything. Ideally manufacturer web pages and reviews here at ENWorld linked to where to buy should help address this but RPGNow is like a game store and it should be fun to browse through but that's sorta difficult currently.

Perhaps ENWorld can actually do some of the work by seperating the PDF product reviews from the print reviews (or having a way to filter for PDFs) so that those already inclined to purchase a PDF cna easily scan through the available products and read quality reviews of them. This might be helped by having more staff reviews of PDFs too since those (and the affiliates) are the guys I trust the most.

re: 1) Just doing that might help legitimize PDFs, though I think most people hold back not because they think PDFs are low quality books but because they just want to be able to read the thing on the loo...

re: 2) Actually, I suspect this might be one of those rare cases where a monopoly helps a bit since I know exactly where to go to get e-books. Also, the new publisher features RPGNow has introduced are pretty nice so they don't seem to be sitting on their laurels. That said, everyone deserves their shot at dot.com fame and fortune...

Sidenote: I wonder if the PDF customer base is a small group of 500 or so people, 100 of which spend the vast majority of the money and account for most of the sales of everyone's books...

On a second sidenote; I know I'm far less likely to buy a PDF if it's going to hit print. Since the companies that consistently publish cool PDFs are frequently getting their books picked up by a print publisher I'm more ready to hold off and just wait for the printed product. I've come to expect that most Nat20 and Ambient books will end up at my FLGS.

[jmucchiello]

Originally posted by Morrus
Again, I disagree. If you go into a music or video store, you never see shelves with the best-ever selling albums or videos. You see the "current chart". The mucis industry suffers the same problem that this one does - it's bloated. The number of sales required to reach #1 in the charts is vastly less than it was in, say, the 70s. So all you'd ever see in prominent places in music stores would be old Beatles and Michael Jackson albums, and nothing current.

That's almost convinced me except for one thing. We're complaining that the shelf life of PDFs is dropping from 60 days to 30 days. Shouldn't we include sales over the last 60 days (a wider window, but still narrower than forever) so that a product that does well out of the gate still stays on the front shelf for at least 2 months?

Joe

[MEG Hal]

Ok, Interludes is #21, and about 235 sold so far and selling a few each month. Right Beneath is about 150 and is free both stats from RPGNow.com. I am also going to take the sale price off at the end of November to see what happens.

[Morrus]

Originally posted by jmucchiello
That's almost convinced me except for one thing. We're complaining that the shelf life of PDFs is dropping from 60 days to 30 days. Shouldn't we include sales over the last 60 days (a wider window, but still narrower than forever) so that a product that does well out of the gate still stays on the front shelf for at least 2 months?

Joe

Yeah - I was pushing for a longer period, but James seems to think 15 days is the way to ago. I agree with you - I suggested a month.

Perhaps ENWorld can actually do some of the work by seperating the PDF product reviews from the print reviews (or having a way to filter for PDFs) so that those already inclined to purchase a PDF cna easily scan through the available products and read quality reviews of them. This might be helped by having more staff reviews of PDFs too since those (and the affiliates) are the guys I trust the most.

I just sent an email to the chap who helps with the reviews page to see if this is feasible. if he says it can be done, then I'll do it.

[Morrus]

List updated with Hal's and Twin Rose's info:

2: 730 (TF&T)
4: 578 (Wild Spellcraft)
5: ~530 (Inns & Taverns)
6: 528 (LE1)
9: 450 (CG1)
10: 381 (4C2F)
13: 329 (Gar'Udok)
21: 235 (Interludes)
19: 232 (LE2)
24: 172 (Campaign Suite)
26: 160 (Enchiridon)

Below #30:

156: 101 Spellbooks (+16 elsewhere)
152: Moon Elves (+55 or so lost figures...grrr...)
150: Right Beneath (Right Under our Noses?)
149: Everyone Else
146: Drow (+6 Print On Demand not counted)
135: 101 Treasures (+6 elsewhere)
125: Enchantment
121: Death: GotG
99: Bodies & Souls
75: 101 Components (+28 elsewhere)

[Twin Rose]

#24 Campaign Suite
172 Sales
(Just under $3,500)

That's on RPGNow only

[MThibault]

That doesn't help the consumer at all - it's just a list of the oldest products (with one or two exceptions). It also probably adversely affects current publishers who find it so much harder to get their product seen by people, which could well be better than anything on that list.

So a last 30 days option seems to me to be a much more accurate, and much fairer way to do it.


Morrus,

What I would prefer (for what it's worth) is a small current hot list (10 ranks, 5 days) so that new products can get their break. They won't stay up long, and it will fluctuate madly, but if they sell a decent amount they will appear on the more stable Recent Bestsellers list (15-20 ranks, 30 days). Then if they do really well they will appear on the Year's Bestsellers List (10 Ranks, 12 months).

If this industry were as mature (age-wise, I mean) as the literary industry then RPGNow could put up a "Classics" Page that will draw attention to products that are over a year old and still worth browsing. Of course, the makeup of this list will cause more discussion and controversy than the naming of a Booker panel. But most bookstores do this. They will bring perennial sellers out to the aisle displays and shop windows every now and then just to let people know that they have more than the recent bestsellers. No one really complains if Philip Roth gets onto the prime real estate this week instead of Wordsworth, it is the bookstore's perogative to try and do what it can to sell products.

Gamers seem to be a sensitive lot, though, and I can see why RPGnow wouldn't even consider a "soft" classics list.


I think most people hold back not because they think PDFs are low quality books but because they just want to be able to read the thing on the loo...



2WS-Steve,

I think that it was Ray Bradbury who said that for the computer to replace a book it would have to satisfy the three "B"s. You must be able to read it in Bed, on the Bus and in the Bathtub.

Cheers.

[Morrus]

Here's another factor, with RPGNow's new "Customer Sources" option -- where do people hear about PDFs from? I'll show mine here -- as expected, the majority of my sales come from my own site. Is that fairly common (do most of your customers hear about your product from your own sites?) or from news sources like myself?

This will, at the very least, show new publishers where to send their new product info if they want to get it seen.

TF&T:

332 customers from ENWorld.org
188 customers from Unknown
30 customers from Search Engine
25 customers from MonteCook.com
16 customers from Website Refferal
15 customers from Friend
9 customers from Dragon Magazine
8 customers from Dungeon Magazine
8 customers from roleplayingtips.com
7 customers from Wizards.com
5 customers from NBos.com
4 customers from google
4 customers from Net
4 customers from RPGShop.com
4 customers from web
3 customers from EN World
3 customers from RPGNews.com
3 customers from RPGObjects
3 customers from Yahoo.com
2 customers from Banners
2 customers from Campaign Suite
2 customers from Drago n
2 customers from Internet
2 customers from online
2 customers from RealmsofEvil.net
2 customers from RPG.net
1 customers from -
1 customers from Aldo Ghiozzi, via WZL Mailing List
1 customers from blah blah blah
1 customers from click through from thunderhead games
1 customers from community 3e
1 customers from Cybercon
1 customers from Dark Quest Games
1 customers from Darkfuries
1 customers from darkquest
1 customers from DM's Familiar
1 customers from DNDL List
1 customers from Duncan Fielden
1 customers from Effie Rovers RPG
1 customers from EN Wold
1 customers from ENWorld
1 customers from everywhere good gamers read internet d20 news
1 customers from GENCON
1 customers from GMMastery.com
1 customers from google.com
1 customers from Guild Companion
1 customers from http://www.rpgd20.com/
1 customers from I don't know
1 customers from Kingdoms of Kalamar Message Boards
1 customers from Knights of the Dinner Table
1 customers from magazine
1 customers from Mongoose Publishing
1 customers from Moongoose Site
1 customers from Mortality.net and their radio show
1 customers from Mortality.net radio show.
1 customers from Nick
1 customers from o grimorio
1 customers from on line
1 customers from on the web
1 customers from on Wyvernsclaws site
1 customers from PBMCube
1 customers from Polyhedron
1 customers from Posting Board
1 customers from Product order (vacuum elemental)
1 customers from Pyramid Magazine
1 customers from REVIEW
1 customers from rpg forum
1 customers from rpgd20.com
1 customers from rpghoard.com
1 customers from RPGtips.com
1 customers from seankreynolds.com
1 customers from Someone from my D&D group
1 customers from Twin Rose Software
1 customers from WebRPG ad
1 customers from www.gamingreport.com
1 customers from www.mortality.net
1 customers from wyvernsclawdesign.com

Wild Spellcraft

267 customers from ENWorld.org
156 customers from Unknown
22 customers from MonteCook.com
18 customers from Search Engine
14 customers from Website Refferal
14 customers from Wizards.com
9 customers from Dragon Magazine
8 customers from Friend
6 customers from Dungeon Magazine
3 customers from net
3 customers from RPGNews.com
3 customers from RPGObjects
3 customers from RPGShop.com
2 customers from Banners
2 customers from Google
2 customers from RealmsofEvil.net
2 customers from RPGhost.com
2 customers from Thunderhead Games
1 customers from -
1 customers from Altavista
1 customers from Anubim Publishers
1 customers from Campaign Suite
1 customers from chatboard
1 customers from Cybercon
1 customers from d20
1 customers from Dark Quest
1 customers from Dark Quest Games
1 customers from darkquest
1 customers from Drago n
1 customers from Dumb luck.
1 customers from Duncan Fielden
1 customers from Email
1 customers from EN Board
1 customers from EnWorld
1 customers from everywhere good gamers read internet d20 news
1 customers from from the Web
1 customers from http://www.rpgd20.com/
1 customers from Jamis Buck's Generators
1 customers from john ballew
1 customers from Malhovic Site
1 customers from Mongoose Publishing
1 customers from Moongoose Site
1 customers from Mortality.net and their radio show
1 customers from Natural Press
1 customers from NBos.com
1 customers from on line
1 customers from online
1 customers from Privateer Press
1 customers from Publisher's site
1 customers from Pyramid Magazine
1 customers from roleplayingtips.com
1 customers from RPG Hoard
1 customers from RPG Sheets
1 customers from RPGNet Review of one of your products
1 customers from Thunderheadgames.com
1 customers from Warhound
1 customers from While reading Reviews for Wild Spellcraft
1 customers from www.hirstarts.com forum
1 customers from www.mortality.net
1 customers from Wyvern claws
1 customers from Wyvern's Claw Design
1 customers from Yahoo.com

4C2F

154 customers from ENWorld.org
113 customers from Unknown
14 customers from MonteCook.com
13 customers from Friend
8 customers from Search Engine
7 customers from Dragon Magazine
7 customers from Website Refferal
3 customers from Dungeon Magazine
2 customers from enworld
2 customers from here
2 customers from Mongoose Publishing
2 customers from net
2 customers from roleplayingtips.com
2 customers from RPGhost.com
2 customers from RPGNews.com
2 customers from RPGObjects
2 customers from Wizards.com
2 customers from Yahoo.com
1 customers from -
1 customers from Anubim Publishers
1 customers from Banners
1 customers from d20revies
1 customers from Dark Quest
1 customers from darkquest
1 customers from Dunn
1 customers from Email
1 customers from EN World
1 customers from found in the internet
1 customers from From the Web
1 customers from Game trade Magazine
1 customers from GameWyrd RPG Reviews
1 customers from Google
1 customers from GPA
1 customers from Husband told me about it!
1 customers from just stumbled across it
1 customers from Knights of the Dinner Table comic
1 customers from mongoosepublishing.com
1 customers from Natural D20 Press
1 customers from Natural20 Press
1 customers from NBos.com
1 customers from online
1 customers from oswaldo
1 customers from Other roleplayers
1 customers from privateer press
1 customers from RealmsofEvil.net
1 customers from rec.rpg.super-heros
1 customers from RPG.net
1 customers from RPGD20
1 customers from RPGd20.com
1 customers from RPGNet Review of one of your products
1 customers from RPGShop.com
1 customers from Sean K Reynolds
1 customers from space
1 customers from Spycraft member forum
1 customers from Starwars Rpg Holonet
1 customers from the DM of my current campaign
1 customers from The web
1 customers from Uncle Bear
1 customers from Unknown
1 customers from web
1 customers from While reading Reviews for Wild Spellcraft
1 customers from www.enworld.org
1 customers from www.imperiumrpg.com
1 customers from www.seankreynolds.com
1 customers from x

Moon Elves

58 customers from ENWorld.org
46 customers from Unknown
11 customers from Search Engine
7 customers from Website Refferal
5 customers from MonteCook.com
3 customers from Friend
2 customers from Dragon Magazine
2 customers from EN World
2 customers from Mongoose Publishing
2 customers from RealmsofEvil.net
2 customers from www.roleplayingmaster.com
1 customers from -
1 customers from EN Board
1 customers from EnWorld
1 customers from GameWyrd RPG Reviews
1 customers from Husband told me about it!
1 customers from magazine
1 customers from malavoc press
1 customers from Mongoosepublishing newsletter
1 customers from Mortality.net
1 customers from Mortality.net and their radio show
1 customers from Net
1 customers from Polyhedron
1 customers from rpg online
1 customers from RPGNews.com

Death: GoftG

47 customers from ENWorld.org
36 customers from Unknown
8 customers from MonteCook.com
4 customers from Dungeon Magazine
4 customers from Search Engine
4 customers from Website Refferal
2 customers from Friend
1 customers from -
1 customers from chatboard
1 customers from Dragon Magazine
1 customers from Email
1 customers from EN Board
1 customers from enworld
1 customers from FenrisWolf
1 customers from Internet
1 customers from Mongoose Publishing
1 customers from mongoosepublishing.com
1 customers from Moongoose Site
1 customers from Mortality.net and their radio show
1 customers from Net
1 customers from RPGNet Review of one of your products
1 customers from RPGObjects
1 customers from Sean K. Reynold's site
1 customers from Web
1 customers from Wizards.com

Drow

51 customers from Unknown
48 customers from ENWorld.org
7 customers from MonteCook.com
7 customers from Search Engine
6 customers from Website Refferal
3 customers from RPG.net
2 customers from Dungeon Magazine
2 customers from Friend
2 customers from Mongoose Publishing
2 customers from RPGNews.com
2 customers from Web
1 customers from -
1 customers from a friend
1 customers from Ambient
1 customers from chatboard
1 customers from Dragon Magazine
1 customers from EN Wold
1 customers from EN World
1 customers from EnWorld
1 customers from From the Web
1 customers from Guild Companion
1 customers from Hero Mail List
1 customers from Mongoosepublishing newsletter
1 customers from Moongoose Site
1 customers from NBos.com
1 customers from net
1 customers from RPGNet Review of one of your products
1 customers from RPGObjects
1 customers from Thunderhead Games

[jmucchiello]

Originally posted by Morrus
Here's another factor, with RPGNow's new "Customer Sources" option -- where do people hear about PDFs from? I'll show mine here -- as expected, the majority of my sales come from my own site. Is that fairly common (do most of your customers hear about your product from your own sites?) or from news sources like myself?

Don't forget. That list is where the customer found RPGNow. Not your product. See a familiar place shows up on my list as well. (I left out the 1s.) This is why places like Dungeon Magazine show up.

46 customers from ENWorld.org
39 customers from Unknown
7 customers from MonteCook.com
7 customers from Search Engine
3 customers from Friend
2 customers from Dungeon Magazine
2 customers from Web
2 customers from Website Refferal
2 customers from Wizards.com

It would be cool if they had the actual referrer field but that would be hard to capture in a shopping cart app. Most of the referrers would be RPGNow (if you buy more than one item at a time). What this list shows is that ENWorld is a good place to advertise your product. I don't think that's really news.

Joe

[Conaill]

Originally posted by Morrus

24: 172 (Campaign Suite)
26: 160 (Enchiridon)

Below #30:

156: 101 Spellbooks (+16 elsewhere)
152: Moon Elves (+55 or so lost figures...grrr...)

With this small a difference between being on the list or off it....

any publishers willing to 'fess up that they bought a few of their own copies just to make it on the list?

[Morrus]

Originally posted by jmucchiello
Don't forget. That list is where the customer found RPGNow. Not your product. See a familiar place shows up on my list as well. (I left out the 1s.) This is why places like Dungeon Magazine show up.

Umm... if that is the case, then, basically, I pretty much sell all of RPGNow's PDFs for them?

James, we need to talk....