What kind of Sales can you expect from PDF?

[HellHound]

So that means there are thirty users out there that are responsable for 8.7% of revenues.

Thank you, oh top thirty users!

[Krug]

Well I think the glut was inevitable, and it's not getting better. Look at the margins for PDF products; which publisher wouldn't kill for 70-80% margins with little risk?

The main problem seems to be the customer base isn't growing anywhere as fast as the supply of products. PDF Publishers, as well as RPGnow, need to reach this customer base. When it launched Monster Manual II reached #63 or so on amazon.com's bestseller list, and I'm sure that translates into the thousands.

The key question: How to get more gamers to purchase PDFs? What about those who don't have access to a credit card?

All I can say is RPGNow's ad in the WotC magazines isn't particularly outstanding. For $10k there are other avenues that might give you more mileage, and also a better non-standard fantasy woman-with-sword-and-magic ad.

I think the most interesting stat was how many time Portable Hole Full of Beer has been downloaded. Imagine those numbers buying a $5 PDF! The Customer Sources breakdown has been interesting as well. Are the stats similar for non-Natural 20 products?

[Morrus]

Originally posted by Krug

The main problem seems to be the customer base isn't growing anywhere as fast as the supply of products.

Succinctly put, sir! That's exactly how I see it.

[quote]
I think the most interesting stat was how many time Portable Hole Full of Beer has been downloaded. Imagine those numbers buying a $5 PDF! [/quote

Yeah - for example, some Asgard mags have far exceeded 10,000 downloads. I don't have the exact figures anymore, unfortunately, as every issue so far was released on the old server.

But that's a lot of people who download large PDFs.

[HellHound]

Because of the registration process, only 1200 people have downloaded Portable Hole from RPGnow. (I've had complaints at having to sign up for an account just to download a free product - personally, I find it hard to believe that people aren't downloading it for that reason, and well, too bad for them).

We also had almost 800 downloads in the first day from the Ambient Inc www.dreadgazebo.com server, but we can't afford that kind of bandwidth.

We also have it available for download from www.mortality.net which has accounted for somewhere between 300 and 400 downloads (I haven't checked lately).

All in all, we have given away over 2000 copies... I'm sure the number would be doubled or more if we were offering it for direct download without requiring an RPGnow account.

Also, just for the record, we will be taking Portable Hole Full of Beer off-line March 31st, 2003. So that will be your last chance to get a copy yourself.

[rpghost]

Originally posted by Morrus
Umm... if that is the case, then, basically, I pretty much sell all of RPGNow's PDFs for them?

James, we need to talk....

Hee... You could say that about any number of publishers out there. You are THE d20 new site after all

But thank you never the less

James

[ced1106]

Originally posted by Krug
The key question: How to get more gamers to purchase PDFs? What about those who don't have access to a credit card?

I'm a demo monkey for various "beer and pretzel" game companies, and while rpg companies have a poor demo system compared to these companies, IMO, PDF companies are in a very good position for this sort of promotion, since the marginal cost of providing promotional product is far less than a "non-electronic" company.

Specifically, go through your review comp lists (you do have one, right? (: and solicit reviewers who are interested in running games (game demos) at their local game conventions and clubs. Just by **seeing** a printed out PDF, gamers will a) realize that PDFs **can** be as useful as hardcopies and b) **can** be printed out! And, of course, you will have exposure for your product which would be otherwise unavailable. Heck, even if you don't publish PDFs, contact your reviewers and see if they'll promote your products as a game convention rpg event.

And, of course, b/c the PDF has been printed out, you don't have to worry about pirating electronic copies for friends (particularly since most attendees of a game demos are strangers to the volunteer).

Not sure about the credit cards. I guess checks are that difficult to process?


Cedric.
aka. Washu! ^O^

[rpghost]

Originally posted by MThibault
I wonder how many transactions include multiple products. Do customers go to the site and buy two or three products at a time, or are the sales more focused? i.e. Find the one product you are looking for and leave.

Ok, since everyone is in the mood for numbers...

The average number of products per order is just about 2 (1.89)

Of course I would like to see that number as large as possible as it cuts down on our costs. With paypal.com and credit cards charging 35cents just to submit a transaction, that eats up a large portion of a $5 order. Paypal even charges more for foreign members and costs for Discover and American Express are also higher. So if I can get that to 3 items per order average that would be great news for everyone. But how?

I'm open to site orginization suggestions - just keep in mind I have a framework I must live inside as I can't re-write the whole system.

James

[Gargoyle]

Here are our numbers as of 13 Nov. Interesting thread.

Beyond Monks - The Art of the Fight is at 351.
Call of Duty - A Paladin Sourcebook is at 87.

Beyond Monks is still selling steadily, Call of Duty is somewhat sporadic, probably because it's more of a niche, and because there are so many other products out there now.

Most of our customers are from ENWorld as well.

Beyond Monk referrals:
105 customers from ENWorld.org
90 customers from Unknown
17 customers from Friend
17 customers from Search Engine
12 customers from Wizards.com
10 customers from Dragon Magazine
10 customers from MonteCook.com
10 customers from Website Refferal
5 customers from RealmsofEvil.net
4 customers from Banners
4 customers from RPGNews.com
3 customers from Dungeon Magazine
3 customers from google
3 customers from RPG.net
2 customers from Ambient
2 customers from chainmail bikini games
2 customers from dnd-l mailing list
2 customers from Mongoose Publishing
2 customers from net
2 customers from roleplayingtips.com
2 customers from RPGhost.com
2 customers from RPGObjects
2 customers from Yahoo.com
1 customers from Aaron Jones
1 customers from Aldo Ghiozzi, via WZL Mailing List
1 customers from An Ad
1 customers from at work, of all the strange places.
1 customers from Chain Mail Bikini.com
1 customers from darkquest
1 customers from Dont Remember
1 customers from Dumb luck.
1 customers from Dunn
1 customers from Email
1 customers from everywhere
1 customers from http://www.chainmailbikini.com/index.shtml
1 customers from I don't remember
1 customers from Internet
1 customers from ironkingdoms.com
1 customers from just happened to find it
1 customers from malavoc press
1 customers from Me
1 customers from mongoosepublishing.com
1 customers from Moongoose Site
1 customers from Mortality.net
1 customers from on the web
1 customers from Online
1 customers from Publisher's site
1 customers from rpg forum
1 customers from rpg net
1 customers from rpghoard
1 customers from RPGNet Review of one of your products
1 customers from RPGShop.com
1 customers from Thunderhead Games
1 customers from Thunderheadgames.com
1 customers from ummmmmmm,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,online
1 customers from While reading Reviews for Wild Spellcraft
1 customers from www.hirstarts.com forum
1 customers from www.rondaksportal.com
1 customers from www.seankreynolds.com

Call of Duty Referrals

29 customers from ENWorld.org
24 customers from Unknown
6 customers from Search Engine
6 customers from Website Refferal
4 customers from Friend
3 customers from MonteCook.com
2 customers from RPGNews.com
1 customers from -
1 customers from chatboard
1 customers from Dungeon Magazine
1 customers from EN World (d20reviews.com)
1 customers from everywhere
1 customers from From the Web
1 customers from Malhovic Site
1 customers from Mongoose Publishing
1 customers from Moongoose Site
1 customers from net
1 customers from RPGNet Review of one of your products
1 customers from RPGObjects
1 customers from spam
1 customers from Thunderhead Games

[rpghost]

Originally posted by Morrus
No, James. They don't. I'm not sure why you keep saying this, but all of us publishers seem to agree that sales are down by a long way.

Maybe I see things from another angle and don't notice recent trends. I see that RPGShop.com and RPGNow.com are doing more business then ever, but there are also MANY more products then ever. Problem is you guys are stuck splitting the pie smaller and smaller- that's probably what is happening. At least at a faster rate then I can get new customers to buy more. I hope to work harder on that very soon with some new promotions coming up.

Originally posted by Morrus
You can help with this by adopting some of the suggestions for your storefront

I'm very egar to do this... just have to make sense to me and not cause a rewrite.

Originally posted by Morrus
you know - you probably make as much from each copy sold as any given vendor).

I hardly doubt that a publisher sees about .35-65 cents per product sold. That's all we get and that doesn't even count for staff payroll or bandwidth/servers.

James

[tensen]

Originally posted by Conaill


With this small a difference between being on the list or off it....

any publishers willing to 'fess up that they bought a few of their own copies just to make it on the list?

It did spur a lot of tell two friends, who tell two friends, and so forth. Come on man, get me a few more sales. be proud of me, you can spare some change for a down and out game designer. Erm.. maybe something like that.

[rpghost]

Originally posted by Sir Whiskers
Create a pdf catalog of all current products. Each product would contain only the information currently displayed on that product's information page, with no graphics.

This is something that was suggested before and why I put together this page:

http://www.rpgnow.com/new_products.php

It lists new product in a condensed maner. The problem with creating something zip'ed up is that it gets out of date quickly and requires some manual effort on a regular basis and we're understaffed as it is. But we can certainly give it a try if you think that will help. Would that formate do for you? Just some HTML pages saved to a ZIP that you can read at home?

Originally posted by Sir Whiskers
1) How many products are currently available on RPGNow?

390 with another large batch on its way and about 5 per week.

Originally posted by Sir Whiskers
2) How many products could such a catalog list before becoming too large for a reasonable download?

If it's just text, all of them would be fine. If it's thumbnails. I'm thinking just a few hundred. What's reasonable for a 56k download though? 1MB? 2MB?

Originally posted by Sir Whiskers
3) How much time would it take to create and maintain the catalog? Would RPGNow have a reasonable expectation of regaining those costs through additional sales?

That's a key question. I'd prefer to have something automated if we do it at all.

Originally posted by Sir Whiskers
4) Would anyone besides me actually use the thing, if it existed?

Probably 1% of the customers would. Maybe. Just a guess.

Originally posted by Sir Whiskers
5) Can much the same thing be accomplished by simply having two product pages for each product - one with graphics, one without?

Isn't it an option in your browser NOT to display graphics? I'm sure there is one, just turn off images and browse that way.

James

[Morrus]

Updated list:

2: 730 (TF&T)
4: 578 (Wild Spellcraft)
5: ~530 (Inns & Taverns)
6: 528 (LE1)
9: 450 (CG1)
10: 381 (4C2F)
11: 351 (Bey. Monks)
13: 329 (Gar'Udok)
21: 235 (Interludes)
19: 232 (LE2)
24: 172 (Campaign Suite)
26: 160 (Enchiridon)

Below #30:

156: 101 Spellbooks (+16 elsewhere)
152: Moon Elves (+55 or so lost figures...grrr...)
150: Right Beneath (Right Under our Noses?)
149: Everyone Else
146: Drow (+6 Print On Demand not counted)
135: 101 Treasures (+6 elsewhere)
125: Enchantment
121: Death: GotG
99: Bodies & Souls
87: Call of Duty
75: 101 Components (+28 elsewhere)

[rpghost]

Originally posted by Morrus
Incidentally - looking at those referrals lists, is that working out? It doesn't seem like, for example, your Dragon and Dungeon ads really have much effect. $10,000 seems a lot of money when you appear to be getting most of your customers from here.

Promotion is also in other modes like pay search engines and conventions and such... But you're right... most of it isn't paying off directly in sales. We have had ads in most major magazines, they just don't do that well even for RPGShop.com

Still one of the major reasons we spent a lot of money in our first year was to build awarness and vendor confidence, which DID pay off. So I regret little of what we've spent, but don't expect to see many big ads in print from us in the forseeable future.

James

[Krug]

Well my suggestions:
1) An indepth survey. Find out why people who do big downloads (such as Asgard) don't purchase. Are they underage? No access to credit cards?

2) Banner ads at targeted sites, announcing a discount if you spend $10-15 or more. Maybe a discount coupon?

3) More promotion in game stores sounds like a good idea, but would game stores benefit?

[rpghost]

Originally posted by Krug
The key question: How to get more gamers to purchase PDFs? What about those who don't have access to a credit card?

RPGNow takes paypal and even money orders. If you send a money order in with your REFERENCE number at checkout, we'll process it. We also offer an option to put your order on CD and mail it back. So hopefully that covers most people.

I have found though, that MOST people have access to a credit card and only 15-20% of orders we sell are paypal.com - something the independent publisher should consider.

James

[Frilf]

Hey, gang,

I really enjoy this thread. It has been most illuminating and entertaining to read. So, I thought I'd just to supply a little more data for the list-makers among you. Here are the sales figures for our products (as of now-ish):

Book of Templates - 153 sales
Races of EVernor I - 66 sales

Both products have done well for us and we are grateful to those of you who have purchased copies (now, go get your friends to buy copies! ). Additionally, both products have received very good critical reviews and positive comments from customers. (As an aside to Morrus and the staff reviewers - perhaps the system could be changed to 10 points rather than 5? It might provide a better reflection of what the product is like. That's a whole other topic, though...)

BEGIN TANGENT
Not to risk dwelling too long on a tangential point here, but I'd like to know the other publisher's views on how reviews in general (and in particular, from affiliate or staff reviewers on EN World) affect their sales in general. How do comments on RPG Now affect sales? Would it be good to encourage folks that browse the virtual isles of product at RPG Now to post their comments? Perhaps there could be a list for those products that garner the best customer feedback, so that sales in general did not dictate everything as far as rankings go. Just an idea. I realize that this will be somewhat controversial due to the highly subjective and sometimes truly uninspired comments that folks can leave occasionally, but it might provide an avenue whereby products that are critically-acclaimed or well-liked by customers can be seen still. I'm not just saying this because our products got good reviews but did not have corresponding sales, either. I think there are other publishers out there with the same situation besides myself. Anyway, back to my regularly-scheduled post, now...
END TANGENT

I agree with others here that I'd like to see the Top X lists at RPG Now adjusted somewhat. I liked the idea of a chart for "Top Sellers This Month" on a floating 30-day basis. Perhaps it could feature the top 20-30 products, as well. As far as the current all-time top-sellers list goes, it could be expanded to the top 50 or 100 (which, in the great scheme of things, will become an ever-shrinking percentage of the total number of PDF products) and be left as it is. However, to show some chronological perspective with respect to sales, perhaps a "Top 40" could be assembled for the year, as well? My two scheckels on the topic, anyway...

I also agree with other publishers that the current RPG Now system is very much "out of sight, out of mind, out of money". A better system for keeping track of what's been published and keeping it in view for a longer period of time would benefit everyone, I think - I'm not just speaking from my own pocket book here

I'd also like to know whether or not sales were part of a multi-purchase transaction on RPG Now. Perhaps a little (M) or some other icon could be added to the reports that would show this information. Perhaps even a numeral system that would show how many items and the publisher's sales position among those various other products. For example, M3/4 would indicate the product was bought as the third product in a four-product purchase. Just another idea. Prattling on, now...

What do you make of that?
Cheers!
Ian

PS Cheese! This is a long post for me!

[HellHound]

Morrus: update - Everyone Else, 151 copies. Not that it makes a difference until we hit the 160 line so we can gauge exactly where the #30 spot is.

SO...

THREADJACKING MODE ON

Come on everyone. Have you been considering buying Everyone Else? This is THE game aid for the stressed DM working on a campaign world. You can provide the villains, you can provide the heroes, you can provide the rulers, the church heads and the adventure... Everyone Else will provide... everyone else.

Do it now, and know you are helping us gauge the exact sales figures of the RPGnow top 30!

Buy Everyone Else now and join in the experiment!

THREADJACKING MODE OFF

edit: color and removed sig

[rpghost]

Originally posted by Frilf
I agree with others here that I'd like to see the Top X lists at RPG Now adjusted somewhat. I liked the idea of a chart for "Top Sellers This Month" on a floating 30-day basis. Perhaps it could feature the top 20-30 products, as well.

Ok, then... lets try this. I'm going to make the following changes and see how they go. I'm afraid the longer lists make it harder for low-speed internet connections, but let me know your feedback. Here's what I did:

1) Increased the HOT SELLERS list to use past 30 days of sales.
2) Increased the HOT SELLERS list to a top 20.
3) Increased the Best Sellers (of all time) list to Top 40
4) Increased the number of products shown on the front page from 18 to 24

As for letting people/reviewers know about new product - we have a mailing list link on the top center of the site that you can join.

Hope that helps.
James

[Morrus]

Updated list - James has increased the list to Top 40.

2: 732 (TF&T)
4: 578 (Wild Spellcraft)
5: ~530 (Inns & Taverns)
6: 528 (LE1)
9: 450 (CG1)
10: 385 (4C2F)
11: 351 (Bey. Monks)
13: 329 (Gar'Udok)
21: 235 (Interludes)
19: 232 (LE2)
24: 172 (Campaign Suite)
27: 160 (Enchiridon)
31: 156 (101 Spellbooks) (+16 elsewhere)
33: 154 (Moon Elves) (+55 or so lost figures...grrr...)
35: 153 (Book Templates)
36: 151 (Everyone Else)
37: 149 (Drow) (+6 Print On Demand not counted)
38: 135 (101 Treasures) (+6 elsewhere)
39: 125 (Enchantment)
40: 122 (Death: GotG)

Below #30:


150: Right Beneath (Right Under our Noses?) [is that right?]
99: Bodies & Souls
87: Call of Duty
75: 101 Components (+28 elsewhere)
66: Races Evernor

[jezter6]

As many of you know, I'm going through the process now of opening my own FLGS. I saw someone (Krug I believe) post about a perspective from us.

While I'm not in business yet, planning a business takes a lot of these details into account. I, personally, would love a way to offer PDF's to my customers. For those of us with high speed data connections, it would be easy for us (a few hundred dollars in a decent printer) to run a Print-on-demand service to our users. I'd also love a way to get PDF's to my people, especially since my customers are going to be younger gamers without credit cards.

Publishers: How would you like to see an FLGS handle transactions like this? I personally would like to see a bulk license to print out/make a cd for my customers. Even the possibility of putting multiple products on 1 cd for my customers. Not sure how to handle this with multiple publishers and the sort. Maybe some kind of deal through RPGnow?