Oh, and one more big issue for PoD and PDFs in general: File size vs. resolution/compression.
In order to produce the details in a particular line screen (lpi) you need to have roughly twice as many dots (dpi) in the original (minimum of 150% of the lpi). For that 133 lpi print you need a 266 dpi image.
In order to get a PDF down to a reasonable size, though, Acrobat suggests you throw away a lot of those pixels. It also suggest you convert pics to JPEGs to reduce file size, but JPEG compression really messes up the pictures. In order to get PDFs down to the 1-4mb size most people are willing to download, you end up with a poor-quality print. In order to get a decent PoD product you'd need to have ~20mb files, sometimes much larger (depending on the number of pictures and colors).
Obviously this could be solved with multiple files (one for downloading, one for PoD), but it adds a whole layer on top of the question.
Thanks for the info on the print process FL; that's very cool.
I figure the PoD companies and a store that offered even rudimentary print services wouldn't mind even downloads 40MB in size. One thing I would imagine RPGNow does for the products using its PoD services if ask the vendors for a Press Quality version of the file as well as the compact version.
I figure its time to hear from me. I currently am not a d20 publisher, though that is in the works now, but I do work for a print/online publishing company.
I have been toying with many ideas on how to do a couple of things with pdfs. A major concern for me is printing speed. Something I have seen on too many occasions, are pdfs with fancy page wrappers and in-depth artwork interspersed with the text. This makes printing take ages.
As many of you know, the more images and tables that a pdf contains, the slower that it will print on the average person's printer. This leads me to believe that a pdf could contain a "printer friendly" version of the document as well. Now this will lead easily into a larger (file size) pdf, but is that acceptable for a product that you can actually print in a short period of time? Is the trade off of greater download time worth the quicker print time?
This steps on one the big selling points, for some people at least, of pdfs, the ability to put nearly unlimited artwork of excellent quality into a document. I know that I have several friends who will not buy products that have crappy artwork or bad layouts (judging a book by its cover, anyone?).
There needs to be a compromise. My alternate idea, was simple. Seperate the beauty from meat. Allow the user to print the text sections seperate from the artwork. This way they can say print pages 2-20, 23-30, and 32. The pages will print quickly and at a reasonable quality. Then iff (yes the double ff is there intentionaly), a person feels the need to print the images, they can print the images in whatever quality that they desire, while still being able to print the text in black and white at high speed.
In regards to cds, has anyone thought about banding together many pdf products onto a single title cd and trying to release it as an "almost print" form? If sales are declining (or non-existant) you could place them all on a single cd and inside a slide jacket and shrink wrap for fairly cheap and sell them for 8-15 dollars at regular game stores maybe. Even in limited print runs of the cd it would point more people to everyone's products and still it would be cheaper than dead tree printing. I'd venture to guess that the main cost would be in distribution?
Originally posted by James Heard In regards to cds, has anyone thought about banding together many pdf products onto a single title cd and trying to release it as an "almost print" form? If sales are declining (or non-existant) you could place them all on a single cd and inside a slide jacket and shrink wrap for fairly cheap and sell them for 8-15 dollars at regular game stores maybe. Even in limited print runs of the cd it would point more people to everyone's products and still it would be cheaper than dead tree printing. I'd venture to guess that the main cost would be in distribution?
There has been some discussion of this, yes. Indeed, on my Campaign Suite CDs we sell 'advertising space' that lets people put free PDFs on for a small price, enticing people to look into their products more.
My eventual goal is to also release 'for sale' PDFs as well.
I really think this is the way to go eventually. Not only would the perceived value go up by lumping products together and placing the product on shelves as "eye candy" for consumers, they'd get print consumers more comfortable with the idea of pdf's. I'd even venture to say that, barring distribution costs racing up into the stratosphere, the cd would more than pay for it's costs if nothing else because it would "sit on the shelf" longer. It would also serve to defeat the "glut" perception since people would associate the products together in a branding sense I think. "Best of" and "RPG Greatest Hits" volumes come immediately to mind. What would even be better is if someone could convince any of the larger publishers/distributers to add in content and their names to the disk. Even saying something like "Malhavoc Press Presents:" on the front cover (kind of like Steven Spielberg presents movies he doesn't make himself) would go a long ways to gain some automatic sales.
If something could be arranged to sell POD of certain higher need products that might not make it to print, I'm all ears.
What about the smaller ones that aren't worth it for me to keep 10 on the shelves? Any thoughts on a deal made between you and FLGS to get discounts on PoD from you...
My thought is this...pay full price and give monthly/quarterly rebates or freebies based upon how much we would use your service. IE: If one month I paid full price for 50 of your products, I would get credit on another purchase. Or maybe just a standard x% discount on all purchases if I can hold up to a certain amount per month?
Honestly...I'd rather use YOUR PoD service, as I don't have to invest in equipment in my place or find someone locally. I could have my customers order now and pick up in-store when it comes in.
Also, I forgot to add my thoughts on the CD scene...
I'm not sure the legality of it, but I do have my own burner in my machine, and could do burn-on-demand IN store based upon thos purchases. It would be easier for me to (and this may not be legal, but it's easy) keep a 'store copy' of each PDF purchased on the local HD, and burn on demand and report sales to publisher/rpgnow. Again, there's the trust issue of this, which I am fully aware of.
I wouldn't mind CD's in stock of certain products, but it's like buying music CDs...many people waste money buying a full CD only to get one or two pieces they want to have. I think after a while (in such a small market like d20) that people would give up on buying CD's full of stuff they never wanted.
I like the customized burn-on-demand. James, have you ever thought about that yourself? Again, saving me having to keep inventory of certain things in the store...but I'd have to wait for shipping which would suck.
Originally posted by Morrus Yep, agreed. Someone phrased it well above - the number of publishers/products is growing faster than the number of consumers. Overall, sales are up, but individually they are down (good for James but bad for us!) I'm selling under half what I would have done a year ago.
I find it interesting the PDF market is mirroring the print market in this way.
__________________ Chris Pramas
Green Ronin Publishing
"Be Your Own Master" www.greenronin.com
I think the idea would be like that of a greatest hits volume - since you're selling from many proven sellers (even in the small "proven sellers pdf market") you'd be bound to hit upon something that was useful or interesting to the consumer. I'm not so sure about printing out cds on demand, on site cd burning would up the price on the cds and mean that the printer would have to have access to the sleeve jackets or else have access to a printer that could handle printing out color cardstock and be able to comfortably put the little buggers together. Also, costs withstanding you'd want a cd to have a pretty cd stamp on top too.
I _really_ think the larger publisher "seal of approval" name on the front would go a long way. A lot of my players go out and buy products solely on name recognition of the authors and publishers of their purchases.
I'd imagine for the trust issue with a retail store, it would actually make more sense to license the retail store. Effectively giving them a flat monthly fee and allowing them to make unlimited sales.... with the excess sales being a major selling point. The publisher's themselves wouldn't be making much, since excess sales vanish from them, and go 100% in the pocket of the retail store. But it would be the retail store pushing the marketing of PDF sales on CD... (They'd want to sell enough to justify their monthly costs)... and since it would probably make more money.. the monthly rate could rise slightly over time to account for the more products the retail store had available (and they'd have been making that much more sales... so the limited extra amount wouldn't be a cut in their own profits.)
Highly unlikely this will happen. But it sounds good in theory.
well, i wasn't thinking the SUPER professional CD's with covers and stuff all super printed. Maybe just a CD with one of those nice label printers to put the names of the files on it and a quick printout on plain paper for the cover, and instead of using the plastic cases just use the cheap paper-thin cases.
Just thoughts. I'd love to burn-on-demand.
As for the monthly fee...that is something that's hard to do because there are just TOO many publishers out there to do. If I were to be able to set something up right now, I'd only go with Malhavoc, maybe Nat-20 or MEG, and probably Bastion. There's just too many publishers to negotiate flat rate deals with.
Now, if they could set something up with James where I could in-turn pay him a monthly fee for access to ALL publishers, that would be ideal, but probably not too profitable for him.
Who knows.
EDIT: I'm a little worried about a monthly license being more expensive than it's worth. Realizing that most products only sell a few hundred copies, what would a license like this cost? $20 month per publisher assumes I can sell at least 4 per month from that publisher. I'm not sure if that's realistic for the time being.
Last edited by jezter6; 14th November 2002 at 09:26 PM..
Originally posted by Arnix As many of you know, the more images and tables that a pdf contains, the slower that it will print on the average person's printer. This leads me to believe that a pdf could contain a "printer friendly" version of the document as well. Now this will lead easily into a larger (file size) pdf, but is that acceptable for a product that you can actually print in a short period of time? Is the trade off of greater download time worth the quicker print time?
Well, a company could sell a multiple versions of its PDF under one purchase. Each version would be a separate download (dial-ups) or you could download the entire thing (cable, dsl, download managers).
I'm already downloading videos of 20+ MB with Go!Zilla. PDF files aren't getting **that** large already are they??? (:
Well, a company could sell a multiple versions of its PDF under one purchase. Each version would be a separate download (dial-ups) or you could download the entire thing (cable, dsl, download managers).
I'm already downloading videos of 20+ MB with Go!Zilla. PDF files aren't getting **that** large already are they??? (:
Bastion Press usually has a print and a pretty version, one with borders and oner without... Their free "Norse Gods" PDF for example has both. I believe others rae going towards this model.
In all reality, I think all PDF's should come with 2 files (not versions). The one file is the PDF which can look a little pretty, but is printer friendly. The other is snazzy artwork and tables and stuff that can be printed out separately.
Remember, that we buy MOST books and pdf's for the text and tables and such, not for the ornate borders on each page. I think it's all the extra decorative stuff, which is nice sometimes...that causes file size and printing time/cost to be so high. I would honestly like to see PDF's without these ornate borders for something with better quality fluffy and crunchy bits.
Again, just the opinion of someone who has too many opinions.
Originally posted by James Heard In regards to cds, has anyone thought about banding together many pdf products onto a single title cd and trying to release it as an "almost print" form?
I've read a few threads about selling game-material CDs in stores, and the results could be summarized in one word: Painful. Customers don't want to buy a product they can't pick up and browse. Retailers don't want to do more with a product than put it on the shelf. Despite how common it is for a gamer to own a computer and play both computer and non-computer games, you rarely see computer games in a game store.
Of course, no one suggested that what you could do with a PDF CD is to supply each retailer with a demo hardcopy to put next to the CDs. The customer has something to pick up and flip through (not to mention realize how many pages of content they'll receive for the low price of the CD). The retailer has something that looks like a book and can be treated like a book. The manufacturer has something **large** to compete for shelf space that a CD wouldn't get.
Well, it's not much different than buying the PDF's online sight unseen. Aside from the free PDF intros that some companies put out, you're still relying on reviews and such for CD compilations.
I don't think it's as bad as you think though. Of course, hard copies lying around wouldn't be bad, but cumbersom for store space.
Originally posted by jezter6 If something could be arranged to sell POD of certain higher need products that might not make it to print, I'm all ears.
What about the smaller ones that aren't worth it for me to keep 10 on the shelves? Any thoughts on a deal made between you and FLGS to get discounts on PoD from you...
My point was we make the VENDOR/PUBLISHER pre-pay for 10 at a time. Since we are warehousing many vendor products, it doesn't bother me if you then come to us and order 2 of each product we have in POD and at a bit of a discount. Sure wouldn't be as much as a normal distribtor - that's for sure, but it would let you get the product in physical format on the shelf and beat out your competition who doesn't have this product at all to offer.
Again, the margins I work with for RPGNow are extreamly small. I'm lucky if I walk away with 10% myself when all is said and done. So for something like this to work, the publishers have to give the ok and the retailers may have to mark up more. A subscription service would definatly not work because of the fact that there are so many vendors involved and so little margin. Not to mention that most of the publishers feel their product is the best and will loose out on any such deals.
As for selling CD bundles that someone mentioned. I cetainly could provide that- but when we did GENCON I found that most people were only interested in the bundles as a promotional thing. One time offer thing. Same reasoning as above. So I'm not sure that would work out. Also, a major problem with bundles is that most of the people interested in this stuff have bought several things that would be on any bundle - thus they'd be looking at buying it again for no reason, so they wouldn't save much in the end. Thus I'm not sure the bundles would be of much interest to anyone except new customers.
Still, that may be enough... but an additional problem that crops up is that the reason we can work on such a low margin at RPGNow is cause we don't physically get involved in the sale. In other words, we're not paying a staff member to pack it up or burn it or ship it or deal with postal pricing, etc. If we go to bundles on CD then we have to deal with a person doing distribution- that's an added cost.
This is ok with POD as the books themselves will be a higher cost and leave room for more a larger margin to cover the costs.
P.S. I posted a thread in the wrong forum about using RPGNow to sell ADS for popular website. I asked for it to get moved, but maybe some of you can reply there till it is:
Where are you hosting and paying for warehouseing/shipping of the POD stuff, or is that through your POD providor?
I'd be happy to set something up with you if possible, and if the publishers are up for some small markup. I mean, how much choice did they get on the PoD prices? It helps them out, but they didn't get much to say on the price of the process.
So a product is $5, and PoD is an additional $4? That makes a paper printout (and I assume they also get the PDF file too) about $9 USD.
If I could get them for $8, or maybe even $9, but sell them for...like $11, I'd still get to make a little money on it for being the 'idiot in the middle' for my local customers.
And of course, keeping some on the shelf is an ok idea, but I'm also thinking of using it for 'special orders' from customers who can't purchase directly through you. That is also a question about just the PDF's as well. I'd like to get PDF's for them if they don't have a credit card, but again I'd have to make something out of it.
It sucks the margin is so small, but it's what happens when you're selling products for $5, and the quantity isn't all that high (not in the thousands).
James, if you have an IM program or something, feel free to email me with some info that you and I could chat it up a little. Or feel free to catch me here at EN World's chat room.
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