Immortals Handbook - Grimoire (Artifacts, Epic Magic discussion)

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Originally Posted by Cheiromancer

Potentially yoink-worthy. Thanks Krusty!

Thats what I am here for dude!

Originally Posted by Cheiromancer

(xp formula is 100*n*(n+1)/2, where n = spell level - 9)

Yes, theres just no pulling the wool over your eyes...dagnabbit.

Originally Posted by Cheiromancer

This is only for spells that use "real doublings" instead of the "two doubles is a triple" kind of D&D math, right?

Yes, although that may be the basis of the spell system if it all works out. I think having two sets ddt (double-double = triple) and ddq (double-double = quodruple) is too confusing for people. So it'll either be one or the other.

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

An alternative to Xp costs in high-end spells would be to integrate Quintessense costs, perhaps split evenly so it doesnt just drain the deity's/mortal's levels.
Or an option to substitute Quintessence for Xp, perhaps a max of half the Xp, and maybe not 1:1, like 5:1. (Since gods can get quintessence easy, just tell their clerics to do stuff )

[Cheiromancer]

Originally Posted by Upper_Krust

Here are a few things I posted many months ago about balancing the (epic) spells above 9th-level.

20th-level spell ~ Teleport City
30th-level spell ~ Stasise Country
40th-level Spell ~ Anti-Magic Entire Planets Surface
50th-level spell ~ Destroy Planet
60th-level spell ~ Create Sun
70th-level spell ~ Summon Black Hole

90th-level spell ~ Move Galaxy

120th-level spell ~ Create Big Bang (So the base Prereqs for this spell would be Int 130 and 111 Automatic Metamagic Capacity feats). I wonder what the minimum level to cast this is...?

I was thinking about this earlier today. Ten applications of widen (at +3 levels each) and the ddq rule will increase all dimensions of an effect by 1000. Disintegrate will make a 10 foot cube of matter disappear. Times by 1000 is about 2 miles on a side. Another 1000 and you are talking a 2000 mile cube. A sphere 2500 miles in diameter has about the same volume. Mercury's diameter is about 3000 miles; Mars's is a little over 4000 miles. So 20 doublings would be enough for a small planet, and 22 would disintegrate the earth. Assuming it failed its save. I forget what the saving throw bonus is for a planet.

Anyway, an antimagic shell doesn't have a saving throw. It covers about the same volume as a disintegrate and is also a sixth level spell. 22 doublings would make an antimagic shell that would encompass the earth. (Add a factor to make it touch delivered of course).

So I'm thinking that the difference between "Anti-Magic Entire Planets Surface" and "Destroy Planet" is mostly to ensure that the planet fails its saving throw vs disintegrate. Suppose adding a +20 heighten would be enough. Then 2 levels of metamagic = 1 level of epic spell. Then the +60 levels of heighten = 30 levels of epic spell.

According to this chain of reasoning, anti-magic entire planet's surface should be 30 something levels higher than antimagic shell. So about 40. And destroy planet should be 40 something levels higher than disintegrate. So about 50.

In fact, scaling up a PHB spell to affect a planet will basically be a 40-something level spell if there is no save, and 50-something level spell if there is. Why don't we say 40 and 50, with the understanding that we might be talking about fairly small planets.

Making an item is a bit more difficult. The minor creation line of spells tops out at 20 cubic feet at 20th level. So we need almost 10 doublings just to get it to around the 1000 cubic feet. Using permanency as our model, we'd have to pay 500 xp per spell level to make it permanent. And hope no one dispels it!

Anyway. To make a planet will be about +15 levels higher than destroying one, so level 70 for an earth-like planet, and require about 35 000 xp. The Sun, though, is about a million miles across, so we'd need about 8 or 9 more doublings to make a Sun in the sky. If I'm right, then creating a Sun is about a 80th level spell. A black hole is about the mass of 3 to 5 suns, so you don't need too many more doublings than that. In fact, if you use your major creation base spell to create something dense (like lead), then it might be easier to create a black hole than a Sun. So a black hole would be about 80th level too.

Of course, it might be that a Sun is just a really big wall of fire, shaped into a ball. A wall of fire at 20th level has an area of 8000 square feet. Call it 1000 square metres. The sun has a surface area of 6 million million million meters, so that would be about 60 doublings. You don't have to increase the thickness of the wall very much (if at all), so this is only about +60 spell levels over the base cost of a wall of fire. That's about right; a 70th level spell.

There are over 1 billion suns in a small galaxy. I think you'd need about 60 epic spell levels above a planet-affecting spell to move a galaxy. 1000-fold increase from a planet to a sun, and three 1000-fold increases thereafter. Plus some factors to cover the distances involved; both to include all those suns in the range of the spell, and then to teleport it another distance.

Hmmm. A 20th level teleport moves you 2000 miles. A light year is 6 trillion miles. I think five thousand-fold increases in range would be needed to move a galaxy about 300 million ly. So about +30 epic spell levels.

I'm thinking about 140th level to move a galaxy.

My numbers are drifting further and further away from UK's benchmarks, so I'll stop here. A more accurate estimate of metamagic spell levels to Epic Spell levels would help. If the ratio is 3:1 instead of 2:1 then my numbers will shrink accordingly. It would also be helpful to discuss how much of a boost to spell DCs is necessary to ensure a planet fails its saving throw; around +20 or +30 would fit well with this model.

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

I think those numbers were just estimates, perhaps even drawn up a long time ago; Even if you wrote down your final product for such things, unless you list your reasoning, you may forget it. When the bestiary came out I decided to do an ad-hoc Black Hole Golem for fun. Now I can't for the life of me figure out why i has 3072 HD.
I hope the system decided apon is simple, like the metamagic idea. If I want to cast "Ltheb's Mystical ICBM Scudstorm" Ill just empower and Twin a magic missile spell a few hundred times.
While with epic spellcasting, it seems the creative and combinative ease out weighs the holes in the system, none the less they are there.

[Cheiromancer]

I'm hoping this will jog his memory.

I'm guessing that the estimates were based on an idea about the relationship between metamagic feats and epic spell levels, and some back-of-the-envelope calculations related to the scale of astronomical phenomena. If I'm in the right ballpark he can probably help me narrow it down a bit more.

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Hey, heres one of truly omnific proportions - If create big bang is 120th level, then what level spell is needed to create an Akashic Library ?
1000? The thing is I hope there are some level and feat requirements to get to certain magnatudes, or the old Epic Spellcasting cheese returns in its new incarnation. My namesake mage could take Divine Inspiration 10 times as a Stage 1 Demiurge. Using it, he takes the "Multifaceted" power to get 6 feats. Thats 60 on-the-fly feats on top of the feats I get from all my class levels/any bonuses from portfolios. A Level 1000 spell doesn't seem too hard. It would take effort, but with the right combinations of feats/divine abilities, getting 2010 Int and a caster level of 2000 doesn't seem hard. (A Little out of my reach but blowing up universes isn't, so I can't comprehend anything more rediculous than two wizards hurling Universes at each other )
Heck, Time Lords could do it no problem. Infinite Int, plus maybe some sort of Infinite Casterlevel could let em do it. They would just need the feats at that point.
But once you get there, then what?
What I want to know, since I think U_K plans to have a lot of High-tech and divine in grimoire, is at what "Level" does magic meet and/or eclipse divinity? At what point can a spell do what Divine Power, Transcendant/Omnific power, cannot? I think the closest you could get would be to compare a level 1000 time lord, with a level *Insert reduculously large number here (with at least 234 digits)* Wizard.

[Kerrick]

Question, UK: are you going with spell slots that you automatically gain (like with 0-9) or with AMC slots that you have to blow a feat on? I've been doing some work on a new, simpler, epic system (I posted the basics in the House Rules forum about a month ago, which means it's probably gone now) and I found that you can gain 1 new spell/3 levels without breaking the system (the same as feats, really...).

And will you be able to put epic spells into artifacts? That's one of my many gripes about the "epic" spell system - you can't put them into magic items or artifacts. WTF?

I was thinking about this earlier today. Ten applications of widen (at +3 levels each) and the ddq rule will increase all dimensions of an effect by 1000. Disintegrate will make a 10 foot cube of matter disappear. Times by 1000 is about 2 miles on a side. Another 1000 and you are talking a 2000 mile cube. A sphere 2500 miles in diameter has about the same volume. Mercury's diameter is about 3000 miles; Mars's is a little over 4000 miles. So 20 doublings would be enough for a small planet, and 22 would disintegrate the earth. Assuming it failed its save. I forget what the saving throw bonus is for a planet.
...
According to this chain of reasoning, anti-magic entire planet's surface should be 30 something levels higher than antimagic shell. So about 40. And destroy planet should be 40 something levels higher than disintegrate. So about 50.

Something else I've been tossing around - I call it the Principle of Bulk Consumption. When you buy things in bulk, you get them cheaper, right? So why shouldn't this apply to metamagic? The rule is this: If you apply the same metamagic feat to a spell more than once, the level adjustment for each application is reduced by 1, to a minimum of 1. So, the spell Cheiro's suggesting, to surround the earth with an antimagic field (using my system)would be: antimagic field (L6); widen x22 (+44) = L50 spell.

I really like the idea of DDQ as opposed to DDT - it makes a lot more sense from a mathematical POV, and it's a lot easier to figure out larger areas and such. I think I'll use that for mine.

One thing I'm having difficulty with is enlarging effects greatly- how do you turn a duration of rounds into a duration of hours, or a 20 foot radius effect into a 2000 foot radius effect? Surely not by piling on 600 iterations of the extend feat, or 99 iterations of the enlarge feat.

You could just make a (possibly epic) feat that increases orders of magnitude as opposed to iteration. For example: Epic Extend Spell (okay, so my names suck ) - for a cost of, say, +5 levels, you can increase the spell's duration by one step, from rounds to minutes to hours to days.

I know why it was put in place, I was reading every article and designer interview I could get my hands on around the time of the 3E release.

Well don't keep us in the dark - speak! Enlighten us, so that we may know the inner workings of the great minds at WotC.

Another idea may be to have Int bonus set as the 'Epic Spell' Prereq. rather than just 10 + spell level it would therefore be 10 + 2/spell level of an epic spell.

I hope by "Int bonus" you really mean "spellcasting ability bonus", otherwise all other casters are boned. And it's ability stat = 10 + spell level, not bonus.

While changing it to ability bonus = 10+1/2 spell level might seem like a good idea, I don't think it is. A L9 spell requires a 19 stat, while a L10 spell would require only 15, feats notwithstanding. What if the character gets ability-drained? He loses the 9th-level spells, but can still cast 10th+? No way, dude. So it requires an absurd ability score to cast a spell to move the galaxy - how often is someone going to cast something like that anyway? Once every million years?

Heres a point to discuss: With the printing of Champions of Ruin (Forgotten Realms evil suppliment), they list that for a +25 increase to the DC, a single factor of the spell, like range, or damage, can be based on Caster Level. (So if have a spell that does 20d6, and add 25 to the DC, it does 20d6/level. )
Is this totally broken, or is it just what the system needed?
I like it, but it screams abuse.

I used it for the level-based system, at +4 levels, and it worked fine. Their version (if what you say is correct) is hideously broken, however. If you set damage to scale by caster level, it should be 1d6/level, not base damage/level.

(xp formula is 100*n*(n+1)/2, where n = spell level - 9)

This is only for spells that use "real doublings" instead of the "two doubles is a triple" kind of D&D math, right?

Is this for XP cost, or the XP require to develop the spell? For that matter, UK - does your system follow the ELH, where developing epic spells requires XP as well as gold?

And finally:

Here are a few things I posted many months ago about balancing the (epic) spells above 9th-level.

I think if you up all those by 10 levels, you'll be closer to the mark. Like I pointed out before, a planet-wide antimagic field is ~L50, and someone else (Cheiro?) said that creating a star would be L70ish; teleporting a city would be around ~30. Assuming it's around 1 mile, we take teleport object (L7), change from target to area (20-ft. radius, +7) and widen x8 (+16, for an radius of 5,120 ft.), we end up with L30.

[Cheiromancer]

I read UK's proposal as requiring a key ability of 10 + twice the spell level. So a wizard's level 10 epic spell would require an Intelligence of 30. Level 11 would be 32, and so on. (I'm reading 2/level as meaning 2 per level.)

The xp formula I quote is an additional cost, a surcharge if you like, for casting a spell that uses ddq factors. I think it was just a random idea, not a key piece of the puzzle.

I don't think UK has commented on xp costs to research spells.

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Originally Posted by Cheiromancer

I'm hoping this will jog his memory.

Its possible the Teleport City was based on the surface area rather than the volume.

Originally Posted by Cheiromancer

I'm guessing that the estimates were based on an idea about the relationship between metamagic feats and epic spell levels, and some back-of-the-envelope calculations related to the scale of astronomical phenomena.

Absolutely.

Originally Posted by Cheiromancer

If I'm in the right ballpark he can probably help me narrow it down a bit more.

You seem to 'get' the idea, I am not sure what else needs narrowed down at this stage?

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy!

Originally Posted by Ltheb Silverfrond

Hey, heres one of truly omnific proportions - If create big bang is 120th level, then what level spell is needed to create an Akashic Library ?
1000?

Infinite...or maybe just 240th.

Originally Posted by Ltheb Silverfrond

The thing is I hope there are some level and feat requirements to get to certain magnatudes, or the old Epic Spellcasting cheese returns in its new incarnation. My namesake mage could take Divine Inspiration 10 times as a Stage 1 Demiurge. Using it, he takes the "Multifaceted" power to get 6 feats. Thats 60 on-the-fly feats on top of the feats I get from all my class levels/any bonuses from portfolios. A Level 1000 spell doesn't seem too hard. It would take effort, but with the right combinations of feats/divine abilities, getting 2010 Int and a caster level of 2000 doesn't seem hard. (A Little out of my reach but blowing up universes isn't,

So, just so I understand you straight, you are worried the prereqs are too easy for a min/maxed Demiurge to cast Big Bang.

You know we really do miss the lack of a 'rolleyes' smiley on ENWorld.

Originally Posted by Ltheb Silverfrond

so I can't comprehend anything more rediculous than two wizards hurling Universes at each other )

Sounds like an interesting illustration for Grimoire.

Originally Posted by Ltheb Silverfrond

Heck, Time Lords could do it no problem. Infinite Int, plus maybe some sort of Infinite Caster level could let em do it. They would just need the feats at that point.

Don't worry about Time Lords being able to cast 120th-level spells.

Originally Posted by Ltheb Silverfrond

But once you get there, then what?

Then you realise that you never fairly roleplayed to get to Demiurge in the first place and your character implodes.

Originally Posted by Ltheb Silverfrond

What I want to know, since I think U_K plans to have a lot of High-tech and divine in grimoire, is at what "Level" does magic meet and/or eclipse divinity?

I may save some high-tech stuff for the Gods vs. Modern/Future part of Chronicle. It depends how much material I have for the Grimoire.

Originally Posted by Ltheb Silverfrond

At what point can a spell do what Divine Power, Transcendant/Omnific power, cannot? I think the closest you could get would be to compare a level 1000 time lord, with a level *Insert reduculously large number here (with at least 234 digits)* Wizard.

Well I'll leave such meanderings to those with more time and inclination at their disposal.

[Cheiromancer]

Originally Posted by Upper_Krust

You seem to 'get' the idea, I am not sure what else needs narrowed down at this stage?

The bit about whether 2 metamagic levels = 1 epic spell level, or whether it is 3 to 1 or what. I.e. whether you'd still stick with your estimates, or if you'd want to revise them by 50% or so.

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Kerrick matey!

Originally Posted by Kerrick

Question, UK: are you going with spell slots that you automatically gain (like with 0-9) or with AMC slots that you have to blow a feat on?

The latter.

Originally Posted by Kerrick

I've been doing some work on a new, simpler, epic system (I posted the basics in the House Rules forum about a month ago, which means it's probably gone now) and I found that you can gain 1 new spell/3 levels without breaking the system (the same as feats, really...).

And will you be able to put epic spells into artifacts? That's one of my many gripes about the "epic" spell system - you can't put them into magic items or artifacts. WTF?

Of course. But if there is a cost the caster will have to meet it.

Originally Posted by Kerrick

Something else I've been tossing around - I call it the Principle of Bulk Consumption. When you buy things in bulk, you get them cheaper, right? So why shouldn't this apply to metamagic? The rule is this: If you apply the same metamagic feat to a spell more than once, the level adjustment for each application is reduced by 1, to a minimum of 1. So, the spell Cheiro's suggesting, to surround the earth with an antimagic field (using my system)would be: antimagic field (L6); widen x22 (+44) = L50 spell.

The metamagic system balances perfectly scaled as it is. I HATE Improved Metamagic. I strongly advise against using something like this.

Originally Posted by Kerrick

I really like the idea of DDQ as opposed to DDT - it makes a lot more sense from a mathematical POV, and it's a lot easier to figure out larger areas and such. I think I'll use that for mine.

Glad I could help.

Originally Posted by Kerrick

You could just make a (possibly epic) feat that increases orders of magnitude as opposed to iteration. For example: Epic Extend Spell (okay, so my names suck ) - for a cost of, say, +5 levels, you can increase the spell's duration by one step, from rounds to minutes to hours to days.

Sounds plausible...although it would be +6 levels.

Originally Posted by Kerrick

I hope by "Int bonus" you really mean "spellcasting ability bonus", otherwise all other casters are boned. And it's ability stat = 10 + spell level, not bonus.

10 + spell level x2

Originally Posted by Kerrick

While changing it to ability bonus = 10+1/2 spell level might seem like a good idea, I don't think it is. A L9 spell requires a 19 stat, while a L10 spell would require only 15, feats notwithstanding. What if the character gets ability-drained? He loses the 9th-level spells, but can still cast 10th+? No way, dude. So it requires an absurd ability score to cast a spell to move the galaxy - how often is someone going to cast something like that anyway? Once every million years?

Spellcasters are not meant to move galaxies unless they are eternals or sidereals of magic.

By my understanding of logistics, 33rd-level should be the highest level character on a planet, 66th-level should be the highest in the galaxy and 99th the highest in the universe. Thats for characters with a lifepan of a century.

Originally Posted by Kerrick

Is this for XP cost, or the XP require to develop the spell? For that matter, UK - does your system follow the ELH, where developing epic spells requires XP as well as gold?

I'm contemplating which is best...I don't like the idea that it would cost you gold, but it should cost you something.

Originally Posted by Kerrick

And finally:

I think if you up all those by 10 levels, you'll be closer to the mark. Like I pointed out before, a planet-wide antimagic field is ~L50, and someone else (Cheiro?) said that creating a star would be L70ish; teleporting a city would be around ~30. Assuming it's around 1 mile, we take teleport object (L7), change from target to area (20-ft. radius, +7) and widen x8 (+16, for an radius of 5,120 ft.), we end up with L30.

Don't think for a moment that the lose frame work of spell effects by level is any sort of iron clad bible on the matter. Its just me thinking out loud.

[Upper_Krust]

Originally Posted by Cheiromancer

The bit about whether 2 metamagic levels = 1 epic spell level,

Where does this come from?

Originally Posted by Cheiromancer

or whether it is 3 to 1 or what. I.e. whether you'd still stick with your estimates, or if you'd want to revise them by 50% or so.

As far as I am concerned its 1:1, unless you have me totally confused with what we are talking about.

[Cheiromancer]

Originally Posted by Upper_Krust

Where does this come from?

As far as I am concerned its 1:1, unless you have me totally confused with what we are talking about.

Antimagic shell is a 6th level spell and affects a 10 ft. radius. To cover the earth it needs to be widened 22 times in a row. Each widening is +3 levels. 22 x 3 is 66. 6+66 = 72. That's too much- the benchmark for destroying a planet is 40, not 72. But if only half the +66 modifier were added to the base of 6 we'd get 6 + 33 = 39; almost exactly our target of 40. So I hypothesize that 2 levels of metamagic = 1 level of epic spell.

Disintegrate is a 6th level spell and affects a 10 ft. cube. To destroy the earth it needs to be widened 22 times in a row. Each widening is +3 levels. So the final level would be 72 (again, higher than the target of 50) but we halve the +66 modifier, as before to get 39. This is too low (we want 50) and furthermore is the same as the antimagic planet. It should be 10 levels higher than that spell. So I posit that a planet should get a saving throw against disintegrate. Maybe 20 levels of Heighten Spell needs to be added to the mix in order to overcome this saving throw. This +20 is also halved, of course, since by hypothesis 2 levels of metamagic = 1 level of epic spell. This makes the end result 49, which is pretty nearly what is desired.

So I am halving the level modifier added by metamagic feats. Otherwise my DCs come out way higher than your benchmarks. But even halving them is not enough for spells like move galaxy. So I wondered if perhaps I should have been dividing by 3 instead of 2.

Or would you say that the 1=1 formula is right and thus your benchmarks are too low? That's what we were chatting about the other day; remember when we calculated that teleport city would be a 45th level spell?

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Originally Posted by Upper_Krust

Howdy!

So, just so I understand you straight, you are worried the prereqs are too easy for a min/maxed Demiurge to cast Big Bang.

You know we really do miss the lack of a 'rolleyes' smiley on ENWorld.

Pretty much
If you don't powergaming considderations matter, heck you are probably right. Most epic games that work run on Gentlemen's rules anyhow. (No Hulking Hurlers or Incantatrix or Epic Spellcasting abusers)
It may be best to err on the side of caution, and make the system lean to the weaker end. (Stops, requirements, etc) The DM has the final word on most issues, but not all will say No if they don't know what the player is truely trying to break.
There was an issue, IIRC, where a WoTC offical stated Psycrystals gain HD, and were Psionic creatures. (There may have been debate over this, and the Official was just ending it with a ruling. I have only heard of this ruling, but the Expanded Psionics Handbook seems to back this up) This eventually meant a Psion could take a psycrystal, who took the Psycrystal feat, who took the Psycry... ...and they all use Aid Another on the Psion's Strength Check to Sunder the universe! (of course a DM would just slap a PC who tried this, but it is in the rules)
The only failing of the d20 system is that Math works for, and against the developer.
And now back to our regularly schedualed forum!
Of your several new magic types/schools/etc, I am sure one kind is Chronomancy. Are your other ideas dimentional-based, or more simple things that may have allready been printed, (and no doubt butchered by WoTC) and just redone to be epic? or are they completely new?