Pantheon design

CRGreathouse · 22nd December 2006, 09:51 AM

How do you design your (sub-sidereal) pantheons?

I'm interested in general principles: how many gods, what power levels, what aspects.

Do you use racial gods? If so,how powerful are they -- greater gods, like in GH and FR?
If you allow mortals to ascend, what percentage of your gods are 'native' and what portion ascended? What is the highest rank an ascended god has reached? Can reach?
What's the power distribution like? How many greater gods are there compared to lesser and intermediate gods?
What's the power balance like? Are there any groups that hold significant (> 1/3) amounts of power without including all the gods?
How well represented are the alignments? Genders? Favored weapon types?

Ltheb Silverfrond · 22nd December 2006, 11:21 AM

Well, for a setting I have been working on for quite a while, I actually have very little (1.5 countries) So the end-distribution of deities is pretty foggy.

What I have so far: (and why)

Spoiler:

As for the rest; I don't know. I have only thrown together one country and made reference to two others, and while the one is pretty big, I haven't set the rest of the world in stone just yet.
My desired distribution would be no more than 1-3 greater gods, and twice as many intermediate gods, and twice as many lesser gods than intermediate. (Whats the point if the "greater gods" arn't greater than their peers?) I also don't want to go the way of FR, where theres a god for every possible race/class/favorite color. Way too much to keep track of.

There are ascended gods within the pantheon, (9 or so just from adventures and campaine history) however most don't reach above Hero Deity level. Each of the Gods have their own agenda for who they sponsor.
It's a pretty low-magic setting, so trying to amass power points by slaying the divine isn't a smart idea. (Oh, sorry Billy, theres only one sword in all the world that could pierce this Pit-Fiend's flesh. We could roll this out, but he probably kills you with impunity...) But it has been done.
Gaining power through worship, such as a couple of ascended evil deities did, works nicely.
I have most Ascended deities stay on the material plane, since they don't usually have too much power they can exercise from other planes. Should they wish to grant a miracle, they pretty much have to use their own resources to do it. Most don't come out and say "Blarg I are a god.", they tend to work in secret to advance the goals of their higher-ups, or to keep themselves safe, in the event they arn't strong enough to handle their enemies.

It is alot of work designing a setting. My best bet is to maintain the status quo - Unless I need to give the answer, I don't work it out ahead of time. I just note the answer I give and make it cannon. (Only works as long as I don't give stupid/poor answers.) One advantage of having my own setting: If I misspeak and say 'blah' is the king, and I didn't intend to use that name, I can just have a war or an assassination or something! Unfortunately, this doesn't work so well for pantheons...

Upper_Krust · 22nd December 2006, 12:44 PM

Hi CRGreathouse mate!

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

How do you design your (sub-sidereal) pantheons?

I'm interested in general principles: how many gods, what power levels, what aspects.

Generally I advocate the equivalent of 9 Greater Gods (one of each alignment).

Of course the typical Pantheon (if there is such a thing?) will not have 9 greater gods.

There are a number of ways to break this down.

Lets say a Demigod = 1, Lesser God = 2, Intermediate God = 4, Greater God = 8. That means 9 Greater Gods = 72.

But probably:

1 Greater God = 8
9 Intermediate Deities - one of each alignment = 36
9 Lesser Deities = 18
9 Demi-deities = 9

The number of Quasi-deities and Hero-deities depends on how many worlds the Pantheon are known on.

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

Do you use racial gods? If so,how powerful are they -- greater gods, like in GH and FR?

Dynasties are created in the same manner as Pantheons.

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

If you allow mortals to ascend, what percentage of your gods are 'native' and what portion ascended?

I don't think there is a definitive answer to this.

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

What is the highest rank an ascended god has reached? Can reach?

Technically anything is possble.

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

What's the power distribution like? How many greater gods are there compared to lesser and intermediate gods?

See above.

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

What's the power balance like? Are there any groups that hold significant (> 1/3) amounts of power without including all the gods?

Can you be more specific?

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

How well represented are the alignments? Genders? Favored weapon types?

See above.

Generally speaking the Pantheon Leader's alignment determines the Plane and the overall 'alignment' swerve of the Pantheon. Although most Pantheons will want one Intermediate Deity of each alignment just to cover as broad a spectrum of worshippers as possible.

Racial Dynasties are sort of the opposite in that they want the alignment of the race to be kept as narrow as possible.

e.g. If Corellon is Chaotic Good, there will be no Lawful Evil elf deity and probably no Lawful Neutral or Neutral Evil gods either.

CRGreathouse · 22nd December 2006, 04:05 PM

Upper_Krust,

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Originally Posted by Upper_Krust

Can you be more specific?

Sure. In the collection of all gods in a setting (what do you call this, since you use Pantheon to mean something else?), how much power do various divine groups hold? Dynasties, pantheons, councils, etc. Organizations that include all the gods aren't what I'm talking about -- for example if there are 60 gods overall and a third of them (powerwise) decided to work together, they'd have a significant amount of power by virtue of not expending energy against each other (whether they were advancing the cause of a particular race, alignment, or even if there was no strong cause to bind them together).

CRGreathouse · 22nd December 2006, 04:13 PM

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Originally Posted by Ltheb Silverfrond

My desired distribution would be no more than 1-3 greater gods, and twice as many intermediate gods, and twice as many lesser gods than intermediate. (Whats the point if the "greater gods" arn't greater than their peers?) I also don't want to go the way of FR, where theres a god for every possible race/class/favorite color. Way too much to keep track of.

I have similar feelings about the number of gods at each power level. I have three greater gods (was four, one passed 'beyond the veil'), about 7 intermediate gods, maybe 16 lesser gods, and then I'm still figuring out how many demideities I have.

Interestingly we're fairly far apart on what the actual gods are. While I have some racial gods, (1) they are all lesser gods and below, and (2) I have no racial god for humans. Of course since the coming of humans the sun-god has become rather powerful as he garners much of their attention, so perhaps it isn't that different after all.

Ltheb Silverfrond · 22nd December 2006, 04:46 PM

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

I have similar feelings about the number of gods at each power level. I have three greater gods (was four, one passed 'beyond the veil'), about 7 intermediate gods, maybe 16 lesser gods, and then I'm still figuring out how many demideities I have.

Interestingly we're fairly far apart on what the actual gods are. While I have some racial gods, (1) they are all lesser gods and below, and (2) I have no racial god for humans. Of course since the coming of humans the sun-god has become rather powerful as he garners much of their attention, so perhaps it isn't that different after all.

I run a setting with lower-than-standard magic, (Ex: Magic items are few but powerful; Wizards are around, but the higher level spells are not well known, so even a 20th level wizard might only have one 9th level spell... And may only have heard of one or two others) so likewise I wanted to keep the number of Gods to a minimum. (In the event I flesh out the rest of my setting, I can splash a new deity here and there without any kind of divine "overcrowding")
I basically built the setting to accomodate a single campaine idea, but the players enjoyed the NPCs and setting so much I had to reuse it. It is kindof cool when you run a setting so many times that the actions of the PCs build histories. (Why write a complex history for a setting?; let the PCs do it for you!)

In general I would say that the more basic and fundamental a deities' portfolios, the more powerful it will be. A god of Kobolds probably wont be as powerful as a god of Fire, and even the god of Fire can't match a god of Time. (Depending on ones perception of which is more primal)

Perhaps as I develop more I'll look in to expanding the pantheon to include other deities. Like adding Elemental gods, and the like; I don't plan on adding a god solely for each specific alignment, because it makes the choice of what deity the PC picks an easy one. If you want to play a cleric of a Fire god, there shouldn't be 3 differen't ones for Good, neutral, and evil; There should just be one, and if that means your alignment is different from the party's, well have fun roleplaying that.

paradox42 · 22nd December 2006, 04:51 PM

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

How do you design your (sub-sidereal) pantheons?

I'm interested in general principles: how many gods, what power levels, what aspects.

Well, if we're answering as individuals, and you're not specifically looking for U_K's reccomendations- my primary homebrew's been under some sort of development, on and off, for over 20 years now. So obviously I've put a lot of thought into the world and the various cultures, though there's still a lot left to do before it even approaches something I'd consider 'complete.' I suppose I'm a lot like Krusty that way, though I've been running campaigns in a 3.X version of the world since 2001 so most top-level things are fairly well ironed out.

The deities of this world are very structured, in the pantheon sense, though there are also a lot of them. The postulate I've followed in world design is that these deities, that is, those of the pantheon, are the only beings with divine power in this world- other worlds can and do have their own gods, but none of those gods has any followers on my world, nor would any followers of those gods who reached my world be able to use the powers of their gods. Among other things, this means that the Drow of my world aren't spider-obsessed, since Lolth is not one of the deities of my pantheon (though she does exist, out in the wide reaches of the multiverse).

The pantheon's main structural characteristic is the dividing line between Good, Neutral, and Evil alignments. There are thirty deities above demigod level, and precisely 10 of each of the three alignment factions. Each faction is ruled by one Greater God (though in the Neutral case, the deity sometimes switches genders, so 'God' isn't always the correct term to use), and the Greater Gods are all gods of Magic. Beneath them are several Intermediates and Lessers, with the defining difference being that Intermediate deities have three spheres of influence while Lessers have only two; each Greater God has four but one of the four is Magic so it can be sort of discounted. Underneath the 'Thirty' are numerous Demideities, which aren't particularly structured at all- there are nearly a hundred at last count, and although I went to some effort to balance out how many are in each faction I didn't make it a priority. Each Demideity has only one sphere of influence, and the world background says they're mainly worshipped on a local level (that is, not everybody on the world has heard of any particular demigod- not the case with the Thirty, which are all known worldwide).

The structure is no accident- the world is postulated to be very old, with over 200,000 years of known history, though not necessarily 'known' in the sense that PCs will learn of it before becoming deities themselves. The current pantheon is not, therefore, made up of beings which created the world; it's actually a group that was specifically brought together 5000 or so years ago to help the world recover from a catastrophe of epic proportions. A few of the current deities actually are former members of older pantheons which once watched this world, but most of the original pantheons and deities have long since moved on to other worlds and realms and are no longer known in this one.

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

Do you use racial gods? If so,how powerful are they -- greater gods, like in GH and FR?

Not as such, no. The racial gods who are part of the core game, like Corellon, are postulated to exist 'somewhere out there' in the multiverse at large, and some of them might in fact be the creators of their associated races on my world- but none are worshipped on it in the modern age. Instead, what happens is more like Kalamar's deity setup- the Thirty take on racial aspects among each different race or culture, and are known by different names in different lands though the religions are recognizably the same if one known what to look for (i.e. has ranks in Knowledge (Religion)).

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

If you allow mortals to ascend, what percentage of your gods are 'native' and what portion ascended? What is the highest rank an ascended god has reached? Can reach?

Due to the history I put behind the world and pantheon, many of the existing deities are actually ascended mortals- including all three Greater Gods, though of those three only one is really known as an ascended mortal (the Good one). The other two have discarded the trappings of their long-lost mortal lives, and the details of those lives are really known only to them. Out-Of-Character, my players are aware that I've always considered the Evil one to be a version of ascended Raistlin, of Dragonlance fame, but since my world is not Krynn and doesn't even vaguely resemble Krynn there's no reason for any characters of the world to become aware of that idea.

What percentage are ascended mortals? That I would have to take a long time counting and figuring to tell you, but I'm fairly sure the ratio is at least 50%. One interesting feature of this world is that, since its history includes a time of high-technology and science, several of the deities are actually ascended robots or computer AIs rather than standard 'mortals' such as humans. None of these ascended machines has gone beyond demideity stage as yet, but one never knows what the future might bring...

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

What's the power distribution like? How many greater gods are there compared to lesser and intermediate gods?

Well, as previously stated, each of the three factions has a single Greater God to lead it, with the rest being Intermediate and Lesser. I just counted again, and found that each faction has exactly 6 Intermediates and 3 Lessers, which matches my notion that behind-the-scenes the Triad (the three Greaters) control the ascension of lower deities through the ranks and make sure that the three factions stay in balance. The demideities aren't as well structured, though every demideity has an associated 'sponsor' among the Thirty whose church ostentibly provides the new demideity with a structure to build on and gain initial faith from.

The presumed methods involved here are that each new deity brought into the pantheon is sponsored by an existing member, and enters as a demideity of that sponsor; after some unspecified time or condition a deity becomes powerful enough to 'go independent' and rise to Lesser rank. I have 10 or so demideities who are postulated to be nearing that power mark in the current day, with three (one of each faction, naturally) who are close enough that they're actually starting to distance themselves from their sponsors- presumably in preparation for ascension to Lesser status. It is assumed that the Triad never allow ascensions to Lesser Deity status except in threes, one deity per faction, so if a hypothetical demigod were to get close to such ascension, he'd have to wait for similar individuals to arise from each of the other two factions before being allowed to actually reach the next level.

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

What's the power balance like? Are there any groups that hold significant (> 1/3) amounts of power without including all the gods?

Yes, clearly the Magic deities (and thus, Magic itself) are the most powerful force on this world. Also, though the structure of the pantheon is very carefully balanced along the lines of Good, Neutral, and Evil, the other alignment axis has no such balance- Chaos has a very clear advantage over Law. Two of the three Greater Gods are Chaotic- Good and Neutral (the Evil one is Neutral Evil specifically). And among the rest of the pantheon, Chaotic and Neutral members outnumber the Lawfuls by a margin of around 3 to 1 (instead of the 2 to 1 which would indicate balance among those three alignment types). Each faction of the Thirty has 2 Lawful members weighed against the other 7 non-Greater deities, with varying numbers of Chaotics and Neutrals in each of the three factions.

EDIT: Oh, and one other interesting facet of power-balance I should mention is that my campaign multiverse features two Sidereal beings that are known to be 'awake' in the Krustian sense, and roaming the cosmos; though mortals almost never hear of them, they are known to deities quite well. One of the two Sidereals secretly has an 'avatar' Intermediate Goddess, who is a member of the Good faction of my pantheon. The PCs in my Epic campaign are actually aware of this entity's true identity and have had contact with her 'Goddess form' in person, though they have wisely steered clear of much interaction with her aside from donating lots and lots of gold and items to her church. The other Sidereal has no avatars among the pantheon of my world specifically, though some of its avatars are known in the rest of the cosmos (one of them is Io the Ninefold Dragon).

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

How well represented are the alignments? Genders? Favored weapon types?

Genders, I'd estimate, are split about even, though obviously the three rulers are male (except, sometimes, the Chaotic Neutral one, who as a deity of Change occasionally switches genders just for the heck of it). Alignments, obviously, are carefully balanced among teh THirty with respect to the Good-Evil axis, though as discussed above the Law-Chaos axis is far, far out of balance. Among the demideities, no great effort was put forth to balance the alignments, though I did follow the rule that each demidiety's alignment has to be within one step of its sponsor's alignment. Favored weapons, I didn't go to any effort to balance out, though I believe pretty much every weapon of the core rules is favored by some deity, somewhere in the list. Crossbows may be an exception.

CRGreathouse · 23rd December 2006, 02:12 AM

Wow, what an answer! That sounds like quite a setup. And yes, I'm loking to see how everyone does it in their own campaign.

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Originally Posted by paradox42

The pantheon's main structural characteristic is the dividing line between Good, Neutral, and Evil alignments. There are thirty deities above demigod level, and precisely 10 of each of the three alignment factions. Each faction is ruled by one Greater God (though in the Neutral case, the deity sometimes switches genders, so 'God' isn't always the correct term to use), and the Greater Gods are all gods of Magic. Beneath them are several Intermediates and Lessers, with the defining difference being that Intermediate deities have three spheres of influence while Lessers have only two; each Greater God has four but one of the four is Magic so it can be sort of discounted. Underneath the 'Thirty' are numerous Demideities, which aren't particularly structured at all- there are nearly a hundred at last count, and although I went to some effort to balance out how many are in each faction I didn't make it a priority. Each Demideity has only one sphere of influence, and the world background says they're mainly worshipped on a local level (that is, not everybody on the world has heard of any particular demigod- not the case with the Thirty, which are all known worldwide).

You have a very regimented pantheon. What would happen if something occurred to shake it up -- say, the good Greater God died?

Why does your Triad work together (and not vie for supremacy)?

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Originally Posted by paradox42

The structure is no accident- the world is postulated to be very old, with over 200,000 years of known history, though not necessarily 'known' in the sense that PCs will learn of it before becoming deities themselves. The current pantheon is not, therefore, made up of beings which created the world; it's actually a group that was specifically brought together 5000 or so years ago to help the world recover from a catastrophe of epic proportions. A few of the current deities actually are former members of older pantheons which once watched this world, but most of the original pantheons and deities have long since moved on to other worlds and realms and are no longer known in this one.

That's interesting. My world is both older and younger than yours, in different senses. My history is perhaps a tenth yours, with the creation of the world dating back only (\me checks notes) about 22,500 years. On the other hand, the current pantheon (with minor changes) has ruled for four times as long as yours. Yet again on the other side, the most recent off the major races was 'just' created, with humanity weighing in at just over 3200 years old.

Out of curiosity, which of your gods are original -- or have you not decided yet? Any of the 18 intermediate ones?

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Originally Posted by paradox42

One interesting feature of this world is that, since its history includes a time of high-technology and science, several of the deities are actually ascended robots or computer AIs rather than standard 'mortals' such as humans. None of these ascended machines has gone beyond demideity stage as yet, but one never knows what the future might bring...

Is this anything like Vance's Dying Earth?

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Originally Posted by paradox42

I have 10 or so demideities who are postulated to be nearing that power mark in the current day, with three (one of each faction, naturally) who are close enough that they're actually starting to distance themselves from their sponsors- presumably in preparation for ascension to Lesser status.

Who actually has the power to permit demigods to ascend? Is it possible that two of the Triad could conspire against the third, bringing in just two new lesser gods? I don't think they want to shake things up, but could they?

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Originally Posted by paradox42

Yes, clearly the Magic deities (and thus, Magic itself) are the most powerful force on this world. Also, though the structure of the pantheon is very carefully balanced along the lines of Good, Neutral, and Evil, the other alignment axis has no such balance- Chaos has a very clear advantage over Law. Two of the three Greater Gods are Chaotic- Good and Neutral (the Evil one is Neutral Evil specifically). And among the rest of the pantheon, Chaotic and Neutral members outnumber the Lawfuls by a margin of around 3 to 1 (instead of the 2 to 1 which would indicate balance among those three alignment types). Each faction of the Thirty has 2 Lawful members weighed against the other 7 non-Greater deities, with varying numbers of Chaotics and Neutrals in each of the three factions.

Very interesting. I presume there's no real commonality between gods of the same ethical (Law-Chaos) alignment, then, since Chaos is favored and Law does not wish to start a conflict that would end it.

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Originally Posted by paradox42

Oh, and one other interesting facet of power-balance I should mention is that my campaign multiverse features two Sidereal beings that are known to be 'awake' in the Krustian sense, and roaming the cosmos; though mortals almost never hear of them, they are known to deities quite well. One of the two Sidereals secretly has an 'avatar' Intermediate Goddess, who is a member of the Good faction of my pantheon. The PCs in my Epic campaign are actually aware of this entity's true identity and have had contact with her 'Goddess form' in person, though they have wisely steered clear of much interaction with her aside from donating lots and lots of gold and items to her church. The other Sidereal has no avatars among the pantheon of my world specifically, though some of its avatars are known in the rest of the cosmos (one of them is Io the Ninefold Dragon).

How did the PCs come to know of the sidereal?

Do avatars develop their own personality and so forth, or are they purely an extension of their creator? That is, does the Goddess exist (to some degree) apart from the sidereal, like a split mind or a personality shard?

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Originally Posted by paradox42

Favored weapons, I didn't go to any effort to balance out, though I believe pretty much every weapon of the core rules is favored by some deity, somewhere in the list. Crossbows may be an exception.

What about... the punching dagger? Lance? Sai?

I'm just kidding. That's pretty cool. As for me, I don't really give out ranged weapons as favored weapons, but I'm otherwise fairly well distributed. I have one question about your favored weapons, though: What do you give to your gods of magic? Quarterstaff is very common, but it gets old quickly.

WarDragon · 23rd December 2006, 03:08 AM

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The other Sidereal has no avatars among the pantheon of my world specifically, though some of its avatars are known in the rest of the cosmos (one of them is Io the Ninefold Dragon).

Slightly off-topic, but this is interesting. Personally, given the Dragon Theory of the Planes, I'd peg Io as a Time Lord... which, coincidentally, means he'd have Sidereal Avatar and Aspects.

paradox42 · 23rd December 2006, 04:57 AM

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Originally Posted by WarDragon

Slightly off-topic, but this is interesting. Personally, given the Dragon Theory of the Planes, I'd peg Io as a Time Lord... which, coincidentally, means he'd have Sidereal Avatar and Aspects.

Well, as I once said in another thread, regarding Sidereals, I long ago developed my own ideas of what they were like- and among other things my own HD requirements for Sidereals are at least an order of magnitude higher than Krusty's.

So in that sense, 'Lord Io' would in fact be like a Time Lord in my cosmos. Exactly how the former 'Destroyer,' now deceased, was killed (an event which took place roughly 25,000 years ago in game time, from the perspective of the modern age of my world) is anybody's guess really. I know who did the deed and what the primary weapon used was, but I have yet to stat up a 3E-compliant version of that weapon (or even the killer for that matter). Running the battle in even a solitaire-game sense would probably take longer than I'm willing to spend.

paradox42 · 23rd December 2006, 05:36 AM

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

Wow, what an answer! That sounds like quite a setup.

Thank you. Of course, having had 20-odd years to develop it does make some difference, I'm sure.

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

You have a very regimented pantheon. What would happen if something occurred to shake it up -- say, the good Greater God died?

Something on that level would be quite a shake-up- I never really explored such ideas in detail, but I'm sure it would prove interesting. There are, actually, potential campaign events I've been dropping into my current games which could cause such shakeups if allowed to fully bear fruit. The adventure I had planned, and explained once in the 'Chronicle' thread, is one of them. Presumably in the 'projection' where the demons win, several if not most of the current gods die, leaving the pantheon in tatters.

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

Why does your Triad work together (and not vie for supremacy)?

Enlightened self-interest for the most part. Each of the three is a god of Magic, true, but the other three spheres of influence are radically different between them. Good-guy has Heroes, Kings, and High Science/Technology as his alternates; Neutral-sometimes-guy has Change, Opposites, and Energy. Neo-Raist has Death, Pain, and Darkness. So really, each of the three has several methods of dealing with problems that the other two just can't touch, and since each of them is equally powerful what typically happens is that if one of them does something radical, the other two gang up and stop him. So in a way, they are vying for supremacy; it's just contained and relatively under control.

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

That's interesting. My world is both older and younger than yours, in different senses. My history is perhaps a tenth yours, with the creation of the world dating back only (\me checks notes) about 22,500 years. On the other hand, the current pantheon (with minor changes) has ruled for four times as long as yours. Yet again on the other side, the most recent off the major races was 'just' created, with humanity weighing in at just over 3200 years old.

Races are a whole different story, on mine.

I have a major and obvious division between 'Elder' races who were around before the Annihilation (the catastrophe mentioned in the previous post), and 'Mutants' who came into the world after it- even though some of them aren't actually mutants in the proper sense of the term (for example, the Crystalloid race I mentioned in the 'First Immortal game' thread came into the world afterward, but aren't evolved from anything that was originally native to the planet). The Elder races, I even have a 'family tree' of sorts going back to the actual Creation event over 200 millennia ago- the first three were Elves, Aboleths, and Dragons. All the other Elder Races, with the exception of Dwarves, came ultimately from them. Dwarves were created after the first war as a sort of peace monument.

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

Out of curiosity, which of your gods are original -- or have you not decided yet? Any of the 18 intermediate ones?

Oh no, in a scheme this complex, rest assured I know exactly who was around in the Beginning, and have for years.

One Good deity, two Neutral ones, and one Evil one are original creator-deities of this world. The Good one is the goddess of Nature, the Neutrals are the god of Law and the goddess of Time, and the Evil one is the god of Hate. Every other deity in the pantheon is assumed to be an interloper (for example, I have Bast from the Egyptian pantheon as a member of the Good faction, though her religion in this world bears many striking differences from her religion as portrayed in other game settings where she shows up, or even historically for that matter) or ascended mortal.

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

Is this anything like Vance's Dying Earth?

No, not really, since this world isn't assumed to be dying- it's assumed to be recovering. Slowly. Of course, many things are happening which could put it into the state of 'dying,' but that's what the PCs are for.

Also, I've never assumed that magic and psionics are some sort of super-science that modern people just don't understand, like Vance's novels seem to assume. In my world, magic and technology evolved in tandem, side by side- to levels almost unimaginable by modern Earthers. The only reason that civilization fell is that it imploded in civil war- nothing else in the multiverse, except perhaps the two Sidereals (formerly three), could compete with them.

Actually, on a side note, this is what led to the current imbalance between Law and Chaos in my homebrew cosmos- the Devils once made the mistake of trying to invade the Material Plane where this world existed. The people, after driving back the invasion, were so incensed by the attack that they mounted a counter-offensive that literally scoured the Hells and killed every single original member of the Lord of the Nine- except Dispater, who betrayed his own kind and allowed the 'Great Red Fleet' to pass through his realm unmolested in exchange for leaving it alone. Thus, the being calling himself Asmodeus in my game is not in fact the 'real' Asmodeus at all, but an imposter who merely assumed his mantle upon gaining the throne. Anyway, after the scouring of Hell, the lord of Heaven- the original ruler of Lawful Good in the cosmos- set a pogrom upon the mortals for daring to upset the cosmic balance, which the mortals happily turned into an excuse to lay waste to the Heavens in much the same manner right after they finished dealing with Hell. Thus, that being is now quite dead as well, and only the beings of Lawful Neutrality are in any way 'original' to my multiverse.

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

Who actually has the power to permit demigods to ascend?

It's a mystery.

Honestly, I've never had to figure it out, so I've left it alone until something forced me to decide.

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

Is it possible that two of the Triad could conspire against the third, bringing in just two new lesser gods?

Probably, yes, though usually they abide by the ancient compact that kept the factions together after the alignments caused the split-up of the original pantheon (or at any rate, the pantheon that came together to help restore the world after the Annihilation). The alignment split didn't happen until around 2000 years later; before that time the pantheon was one pretty-much monolithic group.

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

I don't think they want to shake things up, but could they?

Not wanting to shake things up is the real reason they see to it that demigods ascend in threes. So yes, they probably could. No doubt, interesting game plots could revolve around one of them deciding to break the compact and do just that.

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

Very interesting. I presume there's no real commonality between gods of the same ethical (Law-Chaos) alignment, then, since Chaos is favored and Law does not wish to start a conflict that would end it.

Law is definitely 'on the ropes' in my version of the multiverse, yes, though as you can see from the above that actually predates this pantheon by several millennia. What I like to say about it is that, although Law is definitely on the losing side and fighting a defensive battle, Chaos (being what it is) has done nothing with its victory but metaphorically sit on it going 'Neener, neener!'

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

How did the PCs come to know of the sidereal?

Ah, therein lies another story.

Though really, there's no reason to tell the whole thing- they were told about her, directly, by other gods they were meeting with at the time as part of an explanation for why the gods were helpless to fix the problem of missing souls in recently-born children. And yes, anybody who's read through the original 3.0 Adventure Path will recognize that as a story hook to the Bastion of Broken Souls- I ran my now-Epic (then just-barely-sub-Epic) party through that a few years ago. So, the characters who were at that meeting with the gods know the truth about the Lady of Light. They've mostly kept it secret from newer party members, I say 'mostly' because some hints have been dropped in conversations (and we always tell new players the whole truth, with the understanding that their actual characters don't know), but when the new characters try to follow up on those hints the knowing party members basically say 'You're better off not knowing.'

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

Do avatars develop their own personality and so forth, or are they purely an extension of their creator? That is, does the Goddess exist (to some degree) apart from the sidereal, like a split mind or a personality shard?

That, too, is a mystery, though it's been implied that she does have a partially-seperate personality. That said, after the Bastion adventure was finished, she came to meet the party in person, and among other things remarked that the Defender would 'sleep for now,' and also remarked upon events that shouldn't have been visible to anything but the Sidereal itself. So it's clear that she has some mental connection to her Source. Really, I like to keep my options open as a DM, so that's what I did here.

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

What about... the punching dagger? Lance? Sai?

Bah! You caught me. None of those are favored either. I guess, looking over my list again, I must admit it isn't as diverse as it could be. Still, there are several oddities on the list like Light Flail, and Claw Glove/Wrist Razors, so it's not like there aren't plenty to choose from.

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

I'm just kidding. That's pretty cool. As for me, I don't really give out ranged weapons as favored weapons, but I'm otherwise fairly well distributed. I have one question about your favored weapons, though: What do you give to your gods of magic? Quarterstaff is very common, but it gets old quickly.

Good-guy has the Longsword, Neutral one (being an ultimate-Chaotic deity of Change) has a listing of 'Any one Exotic weapon, chosen at 1st level,' and Evil-guy (being god of Death) has the Scythe. None of the three actually favors traditional Wizard weapons, oddly enough.

CRGreathouse · 23rd December 2006, 07:04 AM

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Originally Posted by paradox42

Thank you. Of course, having had 20-odd years to develop it does make some difference, I'm sure.

No doubt. I should have started earlier -- I've 'only' put in half to a third as much time.

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Originally Posted by paradox42

Something on that level would be quite a shake-up- I never really explored such ideas in detail, but I'm sure it would prove interesting. There are, actually, potential campaign events I've been dropping into my current games which could cause such shakeups if allowed to fully bear fruit. The adventure I had planned, and explained once in the 'Chronicle' thread, is one of them. Presumably in the 'projection' where the demons win, several if not most of the current gods die, leaving the pantheon in tatters.

I do very much like to shake things up in my game, although admittedly I've never done it to that level. I have, however, had gods die -- several (including a greater god) historically, and at least one during in-game time. Similarly in recent memory a god ascended. On the mundane level, one nation has fallen and a long-running war has ended.

Your last line does bring up a question, though. What's the power relation between demons/devils and their masters vs. the gods? In the standard Great Wheel cosmology, it seems the (evil) gods don't have all that much power compared to the demon lords and archdevils, that if the Blood War was to not keep them occupied they'd directly challenge the dark gods for control. As it stands, there, gods control tiny realms compared to the vast empires of the demons and devils. What's it like in your campaign? Clearly the demons have some power compared to the gods, or else their victory would not cause the deaths of so many gods.

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Originally Posted by paradox42

Races are a whole different story, on mine.

I have a major and obvious division between 'Elder' races who were around before the Annihilation (the catastrophe mentioned in the previous post), and 'Mutants' who came into the world after it- even though some of them aren't actually mutants in the proper sense of the term (for example, the Crystalloid race I mentioned in the 'First Immortal game' thread came into the world afterward, but aren't evolved from anything that was originally native to the planet). The Elder races, I even have a 'family tree' of sorts going back to the actual Creation event over 200 millennia ago- the first three were Elves, Aboleths, and Dragons. All the other Elder Races, with the exception of Dwarves, came ultimately from them. Dwarves were created after the first war as a sort of peace monument.

Amusingly similar to mine, except it was humans not dwarves, and the original creation was a mistake. The final creation was a 'committee effort'.

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Originally Posted by paradox42

Actually, on a side note, this is what led to the current imbalance between Law and Chaos in my homebrew cosmos- the Devils once made the mistake of trying to invade the Material Plane where this world existed. The people, after driving back the invasion, were so incensed by the attack that they mounted a counter-offensive that literally scoured the Hells and killed every single original member of the Lord of the Nine- except Dispater, who betrayed his own kind and allowed the 'Great Red Fleet' to pass through his realm unmolested in exchange for leaving it alone. Thus, the being calling himself Asmodeus in my game is not in fact the 'real' Asmodeus at all, but an imposter who merely assumed his mantle upon gaining the throne. Anyway, after the scouring of Hell, the lord of Heaven- the original ruler of Lawful Good in the cosmos- set a pogrom upon the mortals for daring to upset the cosmic balance, which the mortals happily turned into an excuse to lay waste to the Heavens in much the same manner right after they finished dealing with Hell. Thus, that being is now quite dead as well, and only the beings of Lawful Neutrality are in any way 'original' to my multiverse.

So much for the theory that demons had power. So mortals are, or were, the primary force in your setting?

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Originally Posted by paradox42

Probably, yes, though usually they abide by the ancient compact that kept the factions together after the alignments caused the split-up of the original pantheon (or at any rate, the pantheon that came together to help restore the world after the Annihilation). The alignment split didn't happen until around 2000 years later; before that time the pantheon was one pretty-much monolithic group.

So the current alignments of the gods are ~3000 years old. What about the personalities and the like: was the (NE greater) death god still a death god then? Was the (CN greater) god of change still a god of change? Am I misunderstanding?

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Originally Posted by paradox42

Law is definitely 'on the ropes' in my version of the multiverse, yes, though as you can see from the above that actually predates this pantheon by several millennia. What I like to say about it is that, although Law is definitely on the losing side and fighting a defensive battle, Chaos (being what it is) has done nothing with its victory but metaphorically sit on it going 'Neener, neener!'

I did get that distinct impression.

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Originally Posted by paradox42

That, too, is a mystery, though it's been implied that she does have a partially-seperate personality. That said, after the Bastion adventure was finished, she came to meet the party in person, and among other things remarked that the Defender would 'sleep for now,' and also remarked upon events that shouldn't have been visible to anything but the Sidereal itself. So it's clear that she has some mental connection to her Source. Really, I like to keep my options open as a DM, so that's what I did here.

Cool. I wonder how you'll develop that over the coming years. In any case I'm not surprised that the goddess would be privy to at least some of the Sidereal's knowledge.

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Originally Posted by paradox42

Bah! You caught me. None of those are favored either. I guess, looking over my list again, I must admit it isn't as diverse as it could be. Still, there are several oddities on the list like Light Flail, and Claw Glove/Wrist Razors, so it's not like there aren't plenty to choose from.

I just picked some of the weapons that are seldom favored -- none are in my campaign. Of course as I mentioned I don't have more than a dozen or so demigods statted.

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Originally Posted by paradox42

Good-guy has the Longsword, Neutral one (being an ultimate-Chaotic deity of Change) has a listing of 'Any one Exotic weapon, chosen at 1st level,' and Evil-guy (being god of Death) has the Scythe. None of the three actually favors traditional Wizard weapons, oddly enough.

You get major kudos from me for not choosing stereotypical mage weapons.

paradox42 · 23rd December 2006, 07:42 AM

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

I do very much like to shake things up in my game, although admittedly I've never done it to that level. I have, however, had gods die -- several (including a greater god) historically, and at least one during in-game time. Similarly in recent memory a god ascended. On the mundane level, one nation has fallen and a long-running war has ended.

I haven't done anything like this directly in-game, though I have had shake-ups happen in recent memory- for example, one event called the 'Revolution of Five Elements' wherein five (pretty much insane) Demigods got together and tried to replace the traditional elements with their own ideas, specifically those matching the 'Discordian Elements' of Boom, Orange, Prickle, Pungent, and Sweet. The demigods' scheme failed, and they were imprisoned in the demiplanes they had created in the attempt to replace the Elemental Planes- and their worshippers totally cut off from them. They are now, effectively, dead, though their servant creatures (collectively dubbed the 'Chaos Elementals') still roam the cosmos looking for ways to bring their creators power and hoping to one day break them free again.

Okay, so maybe I took a comment I read once about 'Actual Elementals of these concepts should remain at best a warped alternative D&D concept' a little too seriously, but the game's all about fun right?

As another example, it's postulated in history notes that the pantheon which originally got together to help the world 5000 years ago had only 21 members, all Lesser Deity or above in status, so that means that at least three times in history a trio of Demideities has been promoted to Lessers (and at least some Lessers have risen to Intermediates). I haven't ever actually sat down and figured out who ascended to what level when, but it probably wouldn't be hard to figure out since I know who the original 21 were (all are still around as members of the current Thirty, and the Triad were the leaders even at the beginning).

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

Your last line does bring up a question, though. What's the power relation between demons/devils and their masters vs. the gods? In the standard Great Wheel cosmology, it seems the (evil) gods don't have all that much power compared to the demon lords and archdevils, that if the Blood War was to not keep them occupied they'd directly challenge the dark gods for control. As it stands, there, gods control tiny realms compared to the vast empires of the demons and devils. What's it like in your campaign? Clearly the demons have some power compared to the gods, or else their victory would not cause the deaths of so many gods.

Actually, the deaths would happen because the gods would get together to fight the demons, and thus be vulnerable to taking personal damage- as well as losing the massive power that would come from losing so many of their worshippers (if not all), not to mention losing the battle in the first place (which would tend to make people turn away from them and look for some other 'True Power' to help them survive). As for how things are assumed to stand now, I'm basically assuming the dark gods are more interested in direct interaction with mortals than anything on the actual Outer Planes, or they could collectively get together and whup the demon/devil lords' butts with a token effort. The archfiends are, in other words, definitely assumed to be less than deities, though presumably as individuals each one is a match for a single Lesser God or Demigod depending on the entity in question.

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

So much for the theory that demons had power. So mortals are, or were, the primary force in your setting?

Not the way you seem to be assuming- what you have to understand about the event is the timing of it. Specifically, it all happened pretty much at the height of that incredibly-high-tech-and-magic civilization I mentioned before. The Devils basically didn't honestly believe that the mortals would be capable of beating them, since individually a mortal is so much less powerful than one of them, but the mortal technology was far, far more powerful than the fiends realized. And to their eternal folly and regret, they provoked the mortals to send the 'Great Red Fleet' in response- even Asmodeus himself wasn't able to withstand the onslaught of three planet-sized warships bristling with weapons to make the Death Star look like a toy hand crossbow! Basically, up until that point the cosmos outside this mortal civilization had been treating them pretty much as any other mortal world, ignoring the potential their technology and magical expertise gave them. After the counterstrike on the Hells and Heavens, well... we'll just say the mortals got more respect and leave it at that.

Of course, the modern-day inhabitants of the world aren't nearly as powerful as their ancestors, a fact which the demons fully intend to exploit in their upcoming invasion. Hence the possibility of failure.

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Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

So the current alignments of the gods are ~3000 years old. What about the personalities and the like: was the (NE greater) death god still a death god then? Was the (CN greater) god of change still a god of change? Am I misunderstanding?

Yes, in the sense that you're thinking the alignments are new. They aren't- the deities who got together always did have their current alignments and spheres of influence, or anyway those 21 who were part of that pre-split pantheon did. The only thing that changed was the deities' reactions to and treatment of each other. Essentially before the split I'm assuming a sort of 'Principle of Active Morality' like that in Dragonstar was in effect; the deities respected each other and worked together even if some of them preferred rather nastier methods than others. Thus, which ones were Good or Evil didn't matter at that time- they all found ways to work together for the greater benefit of all, even the Evil ones who were in it (again) out of enlightened self-interest.

Phantom Llama · 23rd December 2006, 01:27 PM

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Originally Posted by WarDragon

Slightly off-topic, but this is interesting. Personally, given the Dragon Theory of the Planes, I'd peg Io as a Time Lord... which, coincidentally, means he'd have Sidereal Avatar and Aspects.

Based on that I'd peg Io as a Stage II Demiurge. No First Ones, but there are Old Ones embodying each of the Outer Planes. He's insufficiently everything to be a Time Lord.

WarDragon · 23rd December 2006, 09:35 PM

It's there, or can be adapted, just not developed like Krusty's dimension theory is. He mentions "the primal void, home of the utterly destroyed," which sounds like the Entropy dimension in the Kosmos, to me.

Fieari · 24th December 2006, 09:27 PM

Great-Great-Great Wyrm Adamic Dragons of any species are all Stage I demiurges, like Ouroborus.

WarDragon · 24th December 2006, 09:52 PM

I'm planning to build Io from a Prismatic Dragon, which is only Neotic, though it seems to best represent a fusion of all dragonkind, being of all colors. I'll probably advance it to 999 HD, and add the Time Lord template on top.

Anabstercorian · 25th December 2006, 06:37 AM

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Originally Posted by Fieari

Great-Great-Great Wyrm Adamic Dragons of any species are all Stage I demiurges, like Ouroborus.

Fieari, may I stat the Dragon Lord of Entropy Atalia for your pantheon?

Alzrius · 25th December 2006, 09:47 AM

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Originally Posted by Anabstercorian

Fieari, may I stat the Dragon Lord of Entropy Atalia for your pantheon?

You may want to hold off on that. Several months ago, I was getting ready to try and stat up Atalia, but then I noticed, on U_K's table of contents for the Epic Bestiary volume 2, that she's on there (entry number six).

Of course, given how far down the line that is, maybe you're right to just run with it.

Upper_Krust · 25th December 2006, 06:36 PM

Hi Alzrius mate!

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Originally Posted by Alzrius

You may want to hold off on that. Several months ago, I was getting ready to try and stat up Atalia, but then I noticed, on U_K's table of contents for the Epic Bestiary volume 2, that she's on there (entry number six).

Of course, given how far down the line that is, maybe you're right to just run with it.

The Atalia in Bestiary 2 is different altogether. Its a Lunar Shadow (epic 'humanoid' undead).