A result of a (not so) recent gaming session with the IH rules in use is the discovery that the Withering [Effect] Divine Ability is really powerful. So powerful that it renders most other forms of attack obsolete. They're given for free as Uncanny Withering Mastery abilities by a number of portfolios at Intermediate Deity level, meaning one doesn't need to sacrifice Divine Abilities to take them, and taking a double portfolio doubles the damage. Using something like Intelligence Withering Beam with a 60HD Lesser Deity gives an Int Draining ranged touch attack that drains 45 Int with no save. (if Surtur's Cosmic Mastery sets a precedent) If this hits, it will one-shot any other deity that doesn't have Int as a primary ability score (Average Int for lesser deities is 10(Base)+16(Divine)+5(Inherent)=31), and mission-kill a deity that has been improving nothing but Int since 1st level (Max Int for a 60HD Lesser Deity without the Knowledge portfolio is something like 18(Base)+2(Racial)+16(Divine)+5(Inherent)+15(Abili ty Score Increases)+30(Headband of Epic Intellect)=86), since someone who relies on Int that is drained down to 31 Int suddenly loses a whole crapload of spell slots, has their Spellcraft DC taken down a lot, and takes a huge hit to AC, Saves, DCs and Attack Rolls (no more Cunning/Intellectual abilities). Their ability to fight back is so drastically reduced that they're sure to die next round.
I had a player in my group who managed to score most of the kills without causing a single point of damage. Damage spells do very little, mêlée attacks need to get critical hits, which are hard to do because everyone's AC is so high, and spamming Save-or-Die effects is hit-or-miss due to the number of ways one can get around spells at that level. Meanwhile a canny Wizard simply Quickened a number of buff spells, and then used his Intellectual Mind-boosted Superior Withering Intelligence Ray (Mi- Mi- Mi-Mikuru Biimu!) to reduce all opponents bar one to the intellectual capacity of vegetables over the space of 3 rounds.
Was it really your intent for the gods with ability-score related portfolios to basically be able to kill anyone who hasn't put a considerable proportion of their power into raising that ability score, and render impotent anyone else with a touch attack?
It's possibly worse than that, since if your Int is damaged to zero you fall unconscious regardless of whether you have an Int-enhancing item or not. Your maxed out god, then, only has 56 points for the purpose of being damaged/drained. (Of course the +30 still gives the normal bonus to save DCs and the like.)
It's possibly worse than that, since if your Int is damaged to zero you fall unconscious regardless of whether you have an Int-enhancing item or not. Your maxed out god, then, only has 56 points for the purpose of being damaged/drained. (Of course the +30 still gives the normal bonus to save DCs and the like.)
Actually, I remember a discussion on the wording of bonuses and the way stat damage/drain works is, since it never goes below zero, if you have an item to increase a stat, only the "Base" can be drained; the Enhancement will allways sit on top if it.
IE 20 Int with Headband +6. Even If drained -50, that brings the 20 to 0, but the +6 then applies.
I don't recall what the outcome of the discussion was but there wasn't much opposition.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anabstercorian
What if someone wanted to play an Awakened Neutronium Golem Wizard?
I don't know whether this is a thing of beauty or evil.
A result of a (not so) recent gaming session with the IH rules in use is the discovery that the Withering [Effect] Divine Ability is really powerful. So powerful that it renders most other forms of attack obsolete. They're given for free as Uncanny Withering Mastery abilities by a number of portfolios at Intermediate Deity level, meaning one doesn't need to sacrifice Divine Abilities to take them, and taking a double portfolio doubles the damage. Using something like Intelligence Withering Beam with a 60HD Lesser Deity gives an Int Draining ranged touch attack that drains 45 Int with no save. (if Surtur's Cosmic Mastery sets a precedent) If this hits, it will one-shot any other deity that doesn't have Int as a primary ability score (Average Int for lesser deities is 10(Base)+16(Divine)+5(Inherent)=31), and mission-kill a deity that has been improving nothing but Int since 1st level (Max Int for a 60HD Lesser Deity without the Knowledge portfolio is something like 18(Base)+2(Racial)+16(Divine)+5(Inherent)+15(Abili ty Score Increases)+30(Headband of Epic Intellect)=86), since someone who relies on Int that is drained down to 31 Int suddenly loses a whole crapload of spell slots, has their Spellcraft DC taken down a lot, and takes a huge hit to AC, Saves, DCs and Attack Rolls (no more Cunning/Intellectual abilities). Their ability to fight back is so drastically reduced that they're sure to die next round.
I had a player in my group who managed to score most of the kills without causing a single point of damage. Damage spells do very little, mêlée attacks need to get critical hits, which are hard to do because everyone's AC is so high, and spamming Save-or-Die effects is hit-or-miss due to the number of ways one can get around spells at that level. Meanwhile a canny Wizard simply Quickened a number of buff spells, and then used his Intellectual Mind-boosted Superior Withering Intelligence Ray (Mi- Mi- Mi-Mikuru Biimu!) to reduce all opponents bar one to the intellectual capacity of vegetables over the space of 3 rounds.
Was it really your intent for the gods with ability-score related portfolios to basically be able to kill anyone who hasn't put a considerable proportion of their power into raising that ability score, and render impotent anyone else with a touch attack?
I have noticed this imbalance myself. I'm sure I'll have recalculated it for the final version.
One of the problems is that characters start with lower levels than ability scores. Meaning at non-epic levels, my balancing of Energy Drain and Ability Drain is correct.
However, at epic levels the difference is probably even, and at immortal levels ability drain becomes more powerful, than energy drain.
So its a really tricky to balance at every level.
One thing I would say is that characters with really powerful attacks will quickly get a reputation that will alert their (immortal) foes. So in that respect it pays to diversify.
I'm also wondering if perhaps a single portfolio should allow beings to trump immunities 25%, while double portfolios trump at 50% (which is effectively 100% considering the double HD factor) instead of 50%/100% respectively.
Actually, I remember a discussion on the wording of bonuses and the way stat damage/drain works is, since it never goes below zero, if you have an item to increase a stat, only the "Base" can be drained; the Enhancement will allways sit on top if it.
IE 20 Int with Headband +6. Even If drained -50, that brings the 20 to 0, but the +6 then applies.
The enhancement bonus always applies, quite true, and the stat can't be drained below 0. Are you arguing that a stat item of at least +1 prevents a character from going unconscious as a result of stat damage?
The enhancement bonus always applies, quite true, and the stat can't be drained below 0. Are you arguing that a stat item of at least +1 prevents a character from going unconscious as a result of stat damage?
I am not "argueing" I was just mentioning that that could be the case. I am not sure whether that using it as such is balanced. But it does make sense in a strange sort of way.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anabstercorian
What if someone wanted to play an Awakened Neutronium Golem Wizard?
I don't know whether this is a thing of beauty or evil.
Hmmm... Withering Beam does 1/8 HD ability drain, Greater Withering Beam does 1/6 HD ability drain, Superior Withering Beam does 1/4 HD ability drain, and Perfect Withering Beam does 1/2 HD ability drain. I got those values from the Challenge Rating PDF and the Epic Bestiary's section on dragon breath weapons, which seems to be partly based on Ascension's [Effect] abilities. Are those the correct formulas, or have they been toned down?
If those are indeed the right values, then I can definitely say that Withering [Effect] is objectively better than every other divine [Effect] and most cosmic [Effects], most especially Withering (Constitution) [Effect].
Consider two 80 HD Greater Deities fighting each other, one with Perfect Sonic Beam which deals 80d6 sonic damage and the other with a regular Withering (Constitution) Beam which deals 10 Constitution drain. The Perfect Sonic Beam deals 280 damage on average, which is most likely already pathetic since most Greater Deities have ~4000 hp or ~8000 hp in their home plane. The Withering (Constitution) beam reduces the target's Constitution by 10, thus reducing his Constitution modifier by 5, thus reducing his maximum hp by [5 × 80] or 400 hit points. An attack that costs but 1 divine ability slot already does more damage than an attack that costs 4 ability slots!
You'll see that Withering [Effect] is even more powerful than a Perfect Cosmic [Effect]. Let's take two 240 HD Old Ones, one with Perfect Cosmic Beam which deals 240d20 divine damage and the other with Withering (Constitution) Beam which deals 30 Constitution drain. The Perfect Cosmic Beam does 2520 divine damage on average. The Withering (Constitution Beam) reduces the target's Constitution by 30, thus reducing his Constitution modifier by 15, thus reducing his maximum hp by [15 × 240] or 3600 hit points. But wait, Old Ones multiply their total hit points by ×2, so that's effectively 7200 hit points lost! An attack that costs 1 divine ability slot does much more damage than an attack that costs 4 cosmic ability slots (24 divine ability slots)! That's not right.
The big problem is that Withering (Constitution) [Effect] scales in power as your enemy has more HD, whereas other [Effects] do the same damage no matter how much HD your enemy has (Certain exceptions like Gravitic [Effect] exist, of course). So in effect you're scaling the damage by two factors: your own HD and the target's HD.
What makes it even more weird is that if your enemy has no Constitution score, all of a sudden your super-powerful Withering (Constitution) [Effect] is totally worthless.
I have been thinking that the way to solve this is by taking the square root of your own Hit Die (modified for effect type) as the effect.
So a 50 HD Lesser God would deal 7 points of Withering Damage (or alternately 2d6) from a Ray. Double that from a touch attack, half it for a cone effect and quarter it from a Strike or Aura power.
I don't see it as being that much of a problem since most creatures by epic level are immune to ability damage/drain and there are ways to become immune. In terms of numerical balance, however, it is a bit powerful. Perhaps you should simply do away with portfolio trumping immunities in general? Or perhaps you should just reduce the power of the effect. Try to keep the math simple though. Most people will get confused if you don't.
Last edited by dante58701; 15th November 2007 at 11:03 PM..
The math would likely be fine (diminishing returns and all that at higher levels) but man, it seems a bit complicated.
Some people just don't like to do math. I know my group wouldn't, though I don't have a problem with it.
Seconded. Whatever you do, please make it a straight division... maybe it should only do 1/20th instead of 1/10th (or, if you prefer, use only half HD to calculate the damage)?
I don't mind finding the Square root of one's HD when calculating effects, but it gets hairy when you think about negative levels, and the [Effect] Augmentations. (Does Telluric effect double the damage dealt each round, or the amount of HD I count as having?)
1/20th might be fine. I think the Square Root solution is the best as far as fairness goes, but not everyone is a crazy math enthusiast.
Compare: Square Root / VS / 1/20th (At full 'perfect' level)
50HD 7 vs 2.5
200HD 14 vs 10
400HD 20 vs 20* - Equal in power at the DEMIURGE level
800HD 28 vs 40
1000HD 31 vs 50
10000HD 100 vs 500
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anabstercorian
What if someone wanted to play an Awakened Neutronium Golem Wizard?
I don't know whether this is a thing of beauty or evil.
=^.^= Although not exactly on topic, I do think imbalance issues will also arise with Sidereal cosmic abilities not matching their Cosmic Ability counterparts.
Personally, I don't see any problems with setting Withering damage as the square root of your HD. It's an extremely simple calculation that can be done mentally (at least until 1000+ HD), and if you're playing using Immortals Handbook rules, you're probably going to be fairly proficient at math anyway.
Well, I'm going to go compare the damage values of sqrt(HD), 1/20 HD, and 1/10 HD. I'll use Perfect Withering (Constitution) Beam as a basis for damage, since that seems to be the most brick-shittingly powerful of the effects, what with its reducing maximum hp per HD and all.
Perfect Divine Beam, Perfect Force Beam, Perfect Energy Beam, Perfect Aligned Beam, Perfect Bane Beam = 1 damage die per HD
(All damage values are averages: 2 per HD for divine, 2.5 per HD for force, 3.5 per HD for energy, 4.5 per HD for aligned, 6.5 per HD for bane)
30 HD... 5 Constitution drain = -2.5 Constitution modifier × 30 HD = -75 maximum hp (-150 in home plane due to ×2 hp multiplier)
40 HD... 6 Constitution drain = -3 Constitution modifier × 40 HD = -120 maximum hp (-240 in home plane due to ×2 hp multiplier)
60 HD... 7 Constitution drain = -3.5 Constitution modifier × 60 HD = -210 maximum hp (-420 in home plane due to ×2 hp multiplier)
80 HD... 8 Constitution drain = -4 Constitution modifier × 80 HD = -320 maximum hp (-640 in home plane due to ×2 hp multiplier)
120 HD... 10 Constitution drain = -5 Constitution modifier × 120 HD × 2 hp multiplier = -1200 maximum hp
160 HD... 12 Constitution drain = -6 Constitution modifier × 160 HD × 2 hp multiplier = -1920 maximum hp
240 HD... 15 Constitution drain = -7.5 Constitution modifier × 240 HD × 2 hp multiplier = -3600 maximum hp
Perfect Withering (Constitution) Beam = 1/20 HD
30 HD... 1 Constitution drain = -0.5 Constitution modifier × 30 HD = -15 maximum hp (-30 in home plane due to ×2 hp multiplier)
40 HD... 2 Constitution drain = -1 Constitution modifier × 40 HD = -40 maximum hp (-80 in home plane due to ×2 hp multiplier)
60 HD... 3 Constitution drain = -1.5 Constitution modifier × 60 HD = -90 maximum hp (-180 in home plane due to ×2 hp multiplier)
80 HD... 4 Constitution drain = -2 Constitution modifier × 80 HD = -160 maximum hp (-320 in home plane due to ×2 hp multiplier)
120 HD... 6 Constitution drain = -3 Constitution modifier × 120 HD × 2 hp multiplier = -720 maximum hp
160 HD... 8 Constitution drain = -4 Constitution modifier × 160 HD × 2 hp multiplier = -1280 maximum hp
240 HD... 12 Constitution drain = -6 Constitution modifier × 240 HD × 2 hp multiplier = -2880 maximum hp
Perfect Withering Beam (Constitution) = 1/10 HD
30 HD... 3 Constitution drain = -1.5 Constitution modifier × 30 HD = -45 maximum hp (-90 in home plane due to ×2 hp multiplier)
40 HD... 4 Constitution drain = -2 Constitution modifier × 40 HD = -80 maximum hp (-160 in home plane due to ×2 hp multiplier)
60 HD... 6 Constitution drain = -3 Constitution modifier × 60 HD = -180 maximum hp (-360 in home plane due to ×2 hp multiplier)
80 HD... 8 Constitution drain = -4 Constitution modifier × 80 HD = -320 maximum hp (-640 in home plane due to ×2 hp multiplier)
120 HD... 12 Constitution drain = -6 Constitution modifier × 120 HD × 2 hp multiplier = -1440 maximum hp
160 HD... 16 Constitution drain = -8 Constitution modifier × 160 HD × 2 hp multiplier = -2560 maximum hp
240 HD... 24 Constitution drain = -12 Constitution modifier × 240 HD × 2 hp multiplier = -5760 maximum hp
As you can see, Withering [Effect] is still powerful once you get to Elder One-level and above due to that flat ×2 hp multiplier. The square root method seems to be the most balanced up until that point, but past that it seems that 1/20 seems more balanced
I'd vote 1/20th, it's fair, though this will mean a revising of the Epic Bestiary ala Errata File (or just a PDF update...which would take no more than 3 days tops).
I'd vote 1/20th, it's fair, though this will mean a revising of the Epic Bestiary ala Errata File (or just a PDF update...which would take no more than 3 days tops).
The problem with using 1/20 HD is that Withering [Effect] becomes very weak for those of Greater Deity-level and below, who are going to be the ones using it most commonly since it's chain of divine abilities.
Sqrt(HD) = Balanced for Greater Deities and below, overpowered for Elder Ones and above
1/20 HD = Underpowered for Greater Deities and below, somewhat more balanced for Elder Ones and above
![Withering [Effect]](http://www.enworld.org/forum/iconimages/eternity-publishing-hosted-forum/withering-effect_ltr.gif)
That's just hideous.
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