Gods & Monsters - New Immortals Handbook Supplement
Hey all!
Okay, I started this thread to discuss points pertinent to the forthcoming Gods & Monsters book, which is the new book I am creating from the appendices of the Immortals Handbook: Ascension.
This will sort of be like a primer to the Immortals Index, but instead of concentrating on one mythology I will draw the titular gods and monsters from multiple sources.
I also plan to include the information on designing your own Pantheons.
Just to refresh your memories, here are the current slated Gods:
I'll probably be looking for an equal number of Monsters, not counting those monsters already replacing the Avatar/Aspect slots for the weaker immortals (such as the Wakinyan/Thunderbird in Yanauluha's entry since he is too weak to possess an Avatar).
So the first question is: Are there any monsters of myth you would really like to see in the book?
At this point the only monster I have decided upon is Typhon (which would mean detailing the Serpentine Epic Dragon), although I do have a handful of others in mind.
Demons and devils are also likely to feature in some capacity.
So if you have any ideas, now is the time and this is the thread.
So the first question is: Are there any monsters of myth you would really like to see in the book?
Thats a tough question. Mythology and legend are abound with monsters/spirits/etc. However, most of the 'common' ones have all ready been covered in the various monster manuals and other books. (or are just advanced versions of those...)
The Kitsune(oriental mythology) are one such creature I have yet to see detailed well. (a Rokugan book did a minor writeup IIRC, and everyone who likes Oriental Adventures I have ever met has done some sort of bad writeup on them) And they could fill quite a bit of space. I would imagine, since the power of a kitsune scales with the number of tails it possess, (somewhat) an 'age category'-like table similar to dragon write ups could work. I doubt they would be epic at the low end, and might only touch upon epic in the higher-end, but it is an option.
The stats for an Arch Angel or two would be cool, and theres quite a few to choose from so you could pick a 'lesser' one and still have plenty for an immortals' index. (Or just a generic Arch Angel template...)
Perhaps one or two 'bizzaro monsters' to go with Algol? (if you weren't already planning to fill his section with the Helio-whatchamacallit template)
Heck, throwing the templates originally planned for the Volume 2 Bestiary (the ones Ascension references anyway) might help loads. (One, people get to use those powers faster, since Bestiary 2 is quite a ways off. {2 years at your speed }Two, you essentially provided infinite monsters in the same space, since you could slap said templates on anything.)
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anabstercorian
What if someone wanted to play an Awakened Neutronium Golem Wizard?
I don't know whether this is a thing of beauty or evil.
__________________ His most serene plurality
--------------------------------------
I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.
-------------------------------------
__________________ His most serene plurality
--------------------------------------
I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.
-------------------------------------
Last edited by zen_hydra; 8th February 2007 at 07:37 PM..
Thats a tough question. Mythology and legend are abound with monsters/spirits/etc. However, most of the 'common' ones have all ready been covered in the various monster manuals and other books. (or are just advanced versions of those...)
Agreed, although you know I like to turn the dials up to '11' in my books, so there is a bit of scope in that regard.
I certainly don't want to cover a monster thats already seen print in 3rd Ed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ltheb Silverfrond
The Kitsune(oriental mythology) are one such creature I have yet to see detailed well. (a Rokugan book did a minor writeup IIRC, and everyone who likes Oriental Adventures I have ever met has done some sort of bad writeup on them) And they could fill quite a bit of space. I would imagine, since the power of a kitsune scales with the number of tails it possess, (somewhat) an 'age category'-like table similar to dragon write ups could work. I doubt they would be epic at the low end, and might only touch upon epic in the higher-end, but it is an option.
Interesting idea. Like the immortals themselves I would like the monsters to cover a good spectrum of CRs, mythologies and alignments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ltheb Silverfrond
The stats for an Arch Angel or two would be cool, and theres quite a few to choose from so you could pick a 'lesser' one and still have plenty for an immortals' index. (Or just a generic Arch Angel template...)
Well I already have Metatron in there so I can't get much more arch-angelic than that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ltheb Silverfrond
Perhaps one or two 'bizzaro monsters' to go with Algol? (if you weren't already planning to fill his section with the Helio-whatchamacallit template)
I'll see what I dig up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ltheb Silverfrond
Heck, throwing the templates originally planned for the Volume 2 Bestiary (the ones Ascension references anyway) might help loads.
I was thinking a few of the Bestiary 2 mob might see the light of day in Gods & Monsters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ltheb Silverfrond
(One, people get to use those powers faster, since Bestiary 2 is quite a ways off. {2 years at your speed }
Cheeky scamp!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ltheb Silverfrond
Two, you essentially provided infinite monsters in the same space, since you could slap said templates on anything.)
I guess I will through out a few ideas.
How about...
Ekhis/Echidna (to go with Typhon)
Tiamat (the proper Sumerian one)
Fenrir
the immortal Gorgons (Euryale and Stheno) Garuda (of Hindu/Buddhist myth)
Apep (Egyptian myth)
Jörmungandr (Norse myth)
the Minotaur (Greek myth)
Gugalana/Bull of Heaven (Sumerian myth)
Nandhi (Hindu myth)
Akupara/A'Tuin (Hindu myth/Diskworld)
Leviathan (Judeo-Christian myth)
Kerberos/Cerberus (Greek myth)
Chimaera (Greek myth)
Polyphemus the Cyclops (Greek myth)
Shaitan, King of the Jinn (Islamic myth) Grendel (Anglo-Saxon myth) Nuckelavee (Celtic myth) Ravana, King of the Rakshasas (Hindu myth) Talos (Greek myth)
I picked out the ones on your list which interest me the most.
- Talos could of course be a reworking of the Iron Golem into my new Golem format.
- The Nuckelavee could be very interesting.
- Garuda I was half thinking about anyway.
- Grendel/Grendel's mother could be cool.
- Ravana is one of my favourites of all time, but I do not want too many from one Pantheon or of the same type of Power. Another one from Hindu myth I am contemplating is the Mahisha.
I want to point out that the kitsune was done to perfection, IMHO, in Kitsunemori. It has rules for kitsune-specific classes (myobu and nogitsune), rules on how they gain (and lose) tails, and how that impacts their fox-magic, and more. The only possible downside that I can think of is that it might take a little longer to make a kitsune character using these rules, instead of just using monster stats on a page, but this book is still far and away the best rules for kitsune in d20 that I know of.
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It's hard to think of some powerful mythological monsters that haven't been either mentioned in a d20 book yet, or listed here. Here's a few that I found:
I can't think of any off the top of my head that weren't already mentioned above- however, I second the call for the Bestiary II templates at least- if not one example of an Entity (so we can see how they work) and one example of an Anomaly (same reason).
__________________ "I am a vampiric half-dragon half-troll lycanthropic fiendish snail! Tremble at my illogical glory!" -The Tongue is Mightier Than the Sword, OotS, Dragon #345
"Come to the Far Realmy side...we have pseudonatural cookies..." - Tlin, Alienoid Warlock, during a game session in March 2007
It's hard to think of some powerful mythological monsters that haven't been either mentioned in a d20 book yet, or listed here. Here's a few that I found:
Falak sounds too much like Dabbat. Cipactli would be the 'God-Slayer' of Aztec mythology.
Likho, sounds very interesting indeed, not too often I come across a monster I never heard of. I wonder was it the forebear of Lich?
Thanks for the ideas. Likho will probably make it in, and sniffing about I found two others (who shall remain nameless for now) from your links that will definately be in there.
I can't think of any off the top of my head that weren't already mentioned above- however, I second the call for the Bestiary II templates at least- if not one example of an Entity (so we can see how they work) and one example of an Anomaly (same reason).
Well I don't want to steal too much of Bestiary II's thunder, but at the same time I do want to have some cool uber monsters in there.
While I like the pyramid effect of monster design within a bestiary, I think those extra monsters in the Undergod sections (replacing Avatars and Aspects) should suffice to give the lower levels a generous share that will let me add one new monster for every deity.
That suggests:
3 x Disciple Power monsters
3 x Prophet
2 x Hero-deity
2 x Quasi-deity
1 x all the others...although I probably won't have a High Lord monster, and technically Dabbat IS a monster, so I don't know whether ther will be any Time Lord level monsters.
Okay, been doing some brainstorming on Gods & Monsters and I think I am going to change my power level for the demons, devils and daemons (and outsider hierarchies in general). The more I think about it the more I think it makes sense to kick them up a notch to better balance them against the Pantheons.
This would mean Demogorgon was a 75 HD Intermediate Power rather than a 50 HD Lesser Power.
Any comments/thoughts on this?
It would mean something like:
Demon Emperor = Greater Power (like Queen of Chaos when she ruled the Abyss)
Demon Monarch = Intermediate Power
Demon Prince = Lesser power
Demon Lord = Demi-power
Demonic Champion = Quasi-power (basically anything of Balor or above)
Major Demon = 10-19 HD
Lesser Demon = 5-9 HD
Minor Demon = 1-4 HD
Okay, been doing some brainstorming on Gods & Monsters and I think I am going to change my power level for the demons, devils and daemons (and outsider hierarchies in general). The more I think about it the more I think it makes sense to kick them up a notch to better balance them against the Pantheons.
This would mean Demogorgon was a 75 HD Intermediate Power rather than a 50 HD Lesser Power.
Any comments/thoughts on this?
It would mean something like:
Demon Emperor = Greater Power (like Queen of Chaos when she ruled the Abyss)
Demon Monarch = Intermediate Power
Demon Prince = Lesser power
Demon Lord = Demi-power
Demonic Champion = Quasi-power (basically anything of Balor or above)
Major Demon = 10-19 HD
Lesser Demon = 5-9 HD
Minor Demon = 1-4 HD
Sounds good. Maybe keeping them at the current 'level' might be better; Demons and the like are villains, and villains typically cheat. (and usually this is the whole point of the adventure: Lolth escapes Demonweb pits onto material plane? Demogorgon splits into two beings? Jubilixus digests entire abyss? News at 11!) So generally, they are going to have some sort of advantage above and beyond what is 'normal' for them.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anabstercorian
What if someone wanted to play an Awakened Neutronium Golem Wizard?
I don't know whether this is a thing of beauty or evil.
Juiblex. The Slime Lord's name is "Juiblex." I know it's easy to misspell, and several products have actually done so throughout the text, but please try to have some respect for the Faceless Lord. It is a demon lord, after all; wouldn't want it to come sizzling into your door one night would you?
But yes, upping the demons a notch is a sensible move- honestly, I'd already effectively done it for Demogorgon's case since my Epic PCs recently squared off with him. They took down what they figured in advance would be an avatar; I took the Fiendish Codex version and advanced it by 13 HD to get a 40-HD version at CR 36 or so. A great time was had by all party members- but now I do need a reason for them not to just tromp off into the Brine Flats and go looking for his real, base body.
__________________ "I am a vampiric half-dragon half-troll lycanthropic fiendish snail! Tremble at my illogical glory!" -The Tongue is Mightier Than the Sword, OotS, Dragon #345
"Come to the Far Realmy side...we have pseudonatural cookies..." - Tlin, Alienoid Warlock, during a game session in March 2007
Juiblex. The Slime Lord's name is "Juiblex." I know it's easy to misspell, and several products have actually done so throughout the text, but please try to have some respect for the Faceless Lord. It is a demon lord, after all; wouldn't want it to come sizzling into your door one night would you? ...
Bah! I have no fear of half-sentient spineless masses of dung! The Canyon Mangrove crab, on the other hand...
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anabstercorian
What if someone wanted to play an Awakened Neutronium Golem Wizard?
I don't know whether this is a thing of beauty or evil.
Sounds good. Maybe keeping them at the current 'level' might be better; Demons and the like are villains, and villains typically cheat. (and usually this is the whole point of the adventure: Lolth escapes Demonweb pits onto material plane? Demogorgon splits into two beings? Jubilixus digests entire abyss? News at 11!) So generally, they are going to have some sort of advantage above and beyond what is 'normal' for them.
Maybe its just me but your comments seem contradictory. Are you suggesting you are in favour of the change or against it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradox42
But yes, upping the demons a notch is a sensible move- honestly, I'd already effectively done it for Demogorgon's case since my Epic PCs recently squared off with him. They took down what they figured in advance would be an avatar; I took the Fiendish Codex version and advanced it by 13 HD to get a 40-HD version at CR 36 or so. A great time was had by all party members- but now I do need a reason for them not to just tromp off into the Brine Flats and go looking for his real, base body.
I'll update my version of Demogorgon on the website to the new format when I get the chance. He will be CR 90 (75 HD Manifestation), CR 44 (37 HD Avatar) and CR 22 (18 HD Aspect). He will actually be a good indicator of whether I have the new Wounding [Effect] rules properly balanced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SokenzanMarauder
How about the Titans from Greek mythology?
I sort of want to save them for the Immortals Index: Greek Mythology...whenever that will be, if ever.
Then again they might be a good introduction to Entities, while still not impacting upon the Bestiary 2 monsters. So I may warm to the idea.
I'd like to see an example of each of the dimensional races not covered in Epic Beastiary 1, or at least their traits so we can actually get some use out if the Dimensional Ancestry divine ability.
I'd like to see an example of each of the dimensional races not covered in Epic Beastiary 1, or at least their traits so we can actually get some use out if the Dimensional Ancestry divine ability.
There are Inevitables in the Monster Manual
There are Pseudonaturals in Bestiary Volume 1 (Akishra, Cogent)
The Unelemental and Void Dragon are 'sort of' Umbrals.
The one missing are the Elementars, they should have been detailed in Bestiary Volume 1. I haven't decided where they should go.
}Two, you essentially provided infinite monsters in the same space, since you could slap said templates on anything.)
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