Would you prefer the new monster/npc stat block in IH products?

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

I'm just curious who would prefer the revised monster/npc stat block in (past and future) Immortals Handbook products. Reading over some WotC books lately and it really does look a lot fresher and 'cleaner'.

I know we sort of talked about this before, and I was sort of on the side of keeping continuity throughout the books.

But with the print version of the Bestiary still given no official release date I probably have the time after Ascension to go back and refit the stat blocks (as well as giving me a chance to make a few minor changes such as revising the Neutronium Golems CR). To be honest it shouldn't take more than an hour per stat block, so I could probably finish the Bestiary in less than a week...or quicker if I get help *wink*...in which case, please don't post such stat blocks here, I'd prefer them emailed to me agooddesigner@hotmail.com

Any comments are, as ever appreciated.

[Kerrick]

No. HELL no. I think that statblock is the ugliest piece of crap I've ever seen. It's non-intuitive, poorly laid out, and non-templatable. I don't see why WotC felt the need to redo all the statblocks - the magic item statblock takes up 5 lines now!

[Phantom Llama]

While the new format (with the obvious tweaks needed) is better in terms of layout and running monsters, it's worse in terms of reverse-engineering/construction/modification. Those are more important in IH material, so I wouldn't support this.

It's also nice to have continuity across products.

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

From what I have seen the new stat block has 1 advantage: If you don't know what any of the creature/npc's abilities or feats do, it can spell them out. (Under 'attack options'; only relevant if it's filled out in total)

I would much prefer the new stat block to the old npc stat block. (The jumbled mess, just look up Elminster in the ELH to see what I mean) For monsters though, the old monster stat block seems to work fine.

[Fieari]

Yikes, I can't see how anyone can prefer the old statblock to the new one. The old one is completely disorganized, with masses of important information jammed under the catchall "Special Abilities", the completely redundant "Attack" line (as opposed to Full Attack), mushing together melee and ranged attacks on the same line, scattering defensive and offensive information all over the place... there's no rhyme or reason to it, and the only way I could see people finding it easier to use is pure conditioning over time.

And yet, so far, I seem to be in the minority here...

[paradox42]

I concur completely with Phantom Llama. I don't like the new statblock as a sole source of creature stats. It's great for combat, but otherwise much harder to use. If you want to have both the old and new statblocks in the book, then I'm all for it; however, since that ups the page count, you're probably not proposing that. And I definitely prefer the old statblock for most purposes other than combat.

[WarDragon]

I'm going to second the "HELL NO." Everyone knows where to find everything in the old one, in the new one you have to hunt it down. It repeats information two or three times, and is completely counterintuitive; instead of "Special Attacks" for everything active, and "Special Qualities" for everything passive, you have to look through Senses, Special Actions, Resistances, Immunities, Attack Options.... no thanks. It's just ugly.

[mercucio]

If you want us to keep buying your products I suggest you NOT switch to the new crap-block.

[Phantom Llama]

Here we see the second, more practical problem with switching stat blocks: While some people prefer the new block, everyone tolerates the old since they have lived with it for so long. Conversely, some people dislike the new one so much they will avoid products that use it. You won't lose any sales by sticking, but you may lose some if you change.

For the record, I agree with Fieari.

[Pssthpok]

Big, emphatic hell no on that one.

[Kerrick]

...the completely redundant "Attack" line (as opposed to Full Attack)...

The "Attack" line is for a single attack, like if the creature made a full move - it would only get one attack in that round, and this lists which attack that would be.

no rhyme or reason to it, and the only way I could see people finding it easier to use is pure conditioning over time.

Considering it's the same block, more or less, that we've been working with for 4 editions (20+ years, for a lot of us), it's small wonder. But really, I have to agree with WarDragon - that thing is poorly laid out, non-intuitive, repeats information... I don't understand how anyone can find anything in that mess. Not to mention it's just ugly - there's no formatting involved (colons, capital letters, etc.), but that may just be editor in me talking.

Now, I will grant the NPC statblocks could use some revision - that huge, dense chunk of crammed-together information is hard to sort through, even if you're experienced and know what to look for. Making NPC blocks like the (old) monster blocks would be nice, as it spreads things out a bit.

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Yea, the old NPC stat block is pretty bad. Granted, the new one isn't too much better. It has redundant info, and unless you happen to have read a certain article on the WotC D&D site, you can't find anything in the darn thing. The one thing the new block does well is save space. (Sometimes) But in general, I like the 'old-school' monster manual stat block vs the new one for monsters. I am used to it, and it's pretty straight forward.

For npcs, now thats where it gets tricky. Simple NPCs (fighters, rogues, etc) don't benefit from the stat block. That attack/full attack line pretty much sums up what they do in combat, which is all you need the stat block for most of the time.

But NPCs like a Warlock, a Shape-Shifter, or, more appropriately, A deity with Uncanny Atomic Effect, have far more options and attack patterns than just 'attack/full attack'. The "attack options" heading in the new format is pretty convenient; One can just list all of the different toggle-able class features or feats that modify it's combat ability. Try packing all that into the old Npc format, or even the old monster format, and see if someone else can figure out what their abilities do. (If you write up your own NPC stats, you probably will remember exactly how they kill the PCs most efficiently; Other readers might not.)

Though as a whole, I definitely think for the monster entries, U_K should stick to the old format. Everyone likes it, its simple, and it keeps an aesthetic sense of 'wholeness' throughout the books. As for the deities; I don't know.
This was the format I was using in Excel; (no auto-calculations or anything, but arranged to be readable) It is based on the new stat block format, but modified for IH convenience.

Spoiler:

Name:
Class:
Alignment:
Size/Type:
Initiative:
Senses:
Aura: (Radius); (Effects)
Languages:
AC:
- Equipment Modifications: (Important with the prominence of Anti-magic)
HP:
Immune:
Resistant:
Spell Resistance: (Could be included on the 'resistant' line)
Saves:
Speed:
Melee: (List melee options or combinations)
Ranged: (List ranged attack options, like ray attacks etc)
Space:
Reach:
Base Attack Bonus: (Just in case)
Grapple: (Could be combined with the above BaB line like in monster entries)
Attack Options: (one of the most useful lines)
Special Actions: (Another very useful stat line)
Combat Gear:
Spells Prepared:
Spell-Like Abilities:
Ability scores:
Special Qualities: (Anything not covered above)
Feats: (Sometimes I break this down into categories, but that takes up more space)
Skills:
Non-Combat Possessions: (Instant Fortress? Wand of Knock?)
Spellbook:
Divine Rank:
Divine Status:
Divine Salient Abilities:
Cosmic Salient Abilities:
Transcendent Salient Abilities:
Omnific Salient Abilities:

[dante58701]

I concur with Wardragon and third the "HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!!" stance. The new stat block is hideous and if beating the crap out of people were legal I would would beat the crap out it's designers for having put forth such an abomination into this world. Fortunately for my sake Im also a pascifist...that many bad designers might just give me a good whopping with a broomstick. I have never liked it and never will. The old format is much easier to use and looks much nicer. It's information isn't scattered all over the place like some god damned Slaad had made it.


I see a flame war ensuing over this horrible concept. But I see the polls are in favor of the old stat block. Hopefully that trend continues because I abhor the new stat block and have refused to buy products that have it in the past. (Though I would still buy your products because they rock so much that even major suckage wont totally ruin them.) As have all of my friends, a gaming community which numbers in the hundreds. And if you think that estimate is an exaggeration...just stop and think...what do all those bored midwest Americans do with all that spare time?

At any rate...PLEASE DONT CHANGE IT!!!