Hi! I bought the Epic Beastery and I absolutely love it. I've been following UK's work and all of the work on this and the DF boards for awhile and I just have one question that's been bugging me.
What's the difference between an Aeon, a Demiurge, and a Time Lord?
The three seem to be used interchangeably throughout the book. The way I've been using them is a Time Lord is a being that has the power of an entire universe, where as a Demiurge is the physical sentience of a universe. I really have no idea where Aeon fits into that.
If anyone could clear this up for me, that would be great.
U_K can probably clarify better than I can, but here goes:
Aeon = Timelord (or Timelord/Highlord equivalent entity) Timelords are the personification and will of an entire universe, while Highlords are composed of 2 or more universes.
Demiurge - Entities who are similar to Timelords in that they are the will of the universe they reside in, but differ in one main aspect: they are not all powerful. They don't yet control all aspects of the universe, but may contest control with other 'lesser beings' (Elder Ones, Old Ones, and First Ones, which are beings of Cosmic magnitude) and will eventually consume all the cosmic entities to gain sovereignty over it's universe. Demiurges are very powerful, and only the strongest of the First Ones (the strongest variety of cosmic entity) rarely will have any chance at defeating a Demiurge. It is unclear what happens if a Demiurge is slain (Good luck trying) but I would imagine either: A - the Univeres Ends. or B - the slaying entity probably becomes the new Demiurge. (With all the divine energy he gained from killing the Demiurge, this is quite likely)
Basically Timelords an Highlords are sentient, superpowerful entities composed of entire universes, while Demiurges are much less powerful but eventually become Timelords.
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Originally Posted by Anabstercorian
What if someone wanted to play an Awakened Neutronium Golem Wizard?
I don't know whether this is a thing of beauty or evil.
I agree with Ltheb's definitions (very nicely summarized!) and will also mention that in Ascension, Time Lords are also dubbed "Monads" which essentially means "indivisible unit" and is a reference to both ancient Greek thought (i.e. Socrates, Plato, Aristotle) and Gnosticism (which mostly used the term to refer to the ultimate Aeon, or God).
IMO if an entity within a universe actually permanently defeats the Demiurge, that entity should in fact become the new Demiurge- but officially, as Ltheb noted, U_K leaves this open to an individual DM's interpretation. Several discussions and arguments buried in other threads have revolved around questions of Demiurges and their status, how to handle their existence; some people even suggested that before a Demiurge becomes an actual Time Lord, it might be possible (and make for interesting gaming) to have multiple Demiurges within one universe. This would most likely be the result of a universe with multiple-personality disorder.
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Well, that would be unlikely. In a universe where the Demiurge has already ascended to Timelord Status, if another entity gains enough power to become a Demiurge itself, the Original Timelord probably just lays the smack down on it before it can do so. Timelords are so absurdly powerful the Demiurge would have little chance. Plus, Timelords have a Trans-temporal (time-travel) power that basically means that if you don't have some sort of defense against past-manipulation (Time lord goes back in time an nukes your home when you are Age 2) then its just assumed you are auto dead. But assuming you can get those defenses (not terribly hard, a Cosmic power, and a good investment if you are planning to take down a Timelord) the Timelord is still pretty much omnipotent anyway, and would likely just transmute your home planet into a black hole.
Basically, it can't be done, because to do so would mean you need to know everything, be more than Omniscient, and be more powerful than the fabric of the universe itself. If you already have those qualities, either your universes Timelord is lazy, or there are higher powers at work. (Yes, higher powers. There are things above Timelord and Highlord status. Things so indescribably powerful mere words don't do justice)
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Originally Posted by Anabstercorian
What if someone wanted to play an Awakened Neutronium Golem Wizard?
I don't know whether this is a thing of beauty or evil.
Let's just say, if the Demiurge wannabe can't deal with Ouroborus, he might as well not even bother. And Ouroborus is only a Demiurge equivalent himself. A real timelord would lay the smack down on him. In fact, against a real timelord, Ouroboros likely wouldn't even get a chance to act!
Basically, no cosmic entity can really get anywhere near being a threat to even Ouroborus. No demiurge can get near to standing up to a timelord.
I'm not really sure how well a timelord would stand up to a highlord. There's a -possibility- for at least a bit of a contest there, I think... but with the million-to-one odds in favor of the highlord.
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I'm assuming you have the demiurge vs. Time Lord contest happening within the universe. But what if it was an attack from outside the universe? Such as through one of the higher (or Nth) dimensions? I know there isn't too much written about them, but wouldn't that move the favor away from the Time Lord slightly, since there's nothing else for each cosmic being to target but each other?
Hmm...two Time Lords going up against each other...on Muzaloth would it just look like two dots bouncing off of one another? Or would one dot simply engulf the other? That would probably make for a pretty interesting adventure, having two Time Lords battling each other, causing pieces of each other's universes to overlap and form inside one another. Reminds me of the exotic particle theory.
apologies for the slow reply, although I see the others have been kind enough to explain things in my absence.
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Originally Posted by jareddm
I bought the Epic Beastery and I absolutely love it.
Hey thanks for the kind words.
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Originally Posted by jareddm
I've been following UK's work and all of the work on this and the DF boards for awhile and I just have one question that's been bugging me.
What's the difference between an Aeon, a Demiurge, and a Time Lord?
The three seem to be used interchangeably throughout the book. The way I've been using them is a Time Lord is a being that has the power of an entire universe, where as a Demiurge is the physical sentience of a universe. I really have no idea where Aeon fits into that.
If anyone could clear this up for me, that would be great.
Aeon is simply the esoteric name for Eternals (yes - just noticed I didn't have that directly under the main Eternals entry).
Demiurges and Time Lords are both types of Eternals (and thus both Aeons).
Both Demiurges and Time Lords are the physical embodiment of a universe, the difference between them is that a Time Lord's control over 'its' universe is absolute (there are no sidereals native to its universe), whereas even though a Demiurge may be the most powerful being in 'its' universe - it does not hold complete authority therein (sidereals may contest its position).
If a Time Lord tried to amalgamate the universe of a Demiurge, it would probably have to contest with the sidereals as well (for what its worth).
As for the size of Eternals, think in terms of Doctor Who's tardis, they may only look several miles in size from the outside, but they are universe sized from the inside.
I have a question on a similar note... when a new universe comes into being is it an arms race within that universe to become the first Demiurge and eventually the Time Lord of that universe? or do Demiurges and Time Lords of other universes try to lay claim before to that tilte before that universe could spawn it's own? On that note could the "greater entity" create a new universe hidden from all others?
Only U_K can answer this because it hasn't been clarified what it takes yet to create a universe. (other than possibly a 120th+ level spell) It is hinted at that there is some benefit or option (or possibly as a means of limited destruction) for a Timelord to lose its dominion over a universe. It might be described as the Timelord shedding it's control over the cosmic-energy level dimensions.
When said Timelord is reduced to a Demiurge level, it usually lies dormant initially for whatever reason. (Gathering power? letting it's universe grow? Bored?) It is only when they awaken that they begin reclaiming their dimensional sovereignty.
I guess another being of sufficient power from outside the universe could enter within somehow and try to ursurp control. Oddly, they are extremely effective at doing so, as the only real method of Complete Invulnerability does not defend against weapons/spells/matter originating from outside the universe that entity resides in. Heck, this would even be the best time to strike if you didn't want to fight a full-power timelord. I would guess there would be divine doctrines and cosmic laws dictated in the Akashic Library about actions like this.
And since there are numerous greater entities than Timelords (Akasha, The Supreme Being, The Omega, most Great Wyrm nehaschimic dragons, and any other crazy Entity U_K can think of) I am sure one of them could pull it off. (Actually, any Timelord with the Apocrypha divine ability can pull it off, since they 'cannot be scried or detected' all they need to do is go invisible, since they are the universe themself)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anabstercorian
What if someone wanted to play an Awakened Neutronium Golem Wizard?
I don't know whether this is a thing of beauty or evil.
I have a question on a similar note... when a new universe comes into being is it an arms race within that universe to become the first Demiurge and eventually the Time Lord of that universe? or do Demiurges and Time Lords of other universes try to lay claim before to that tilte before that universe could spawn it's own? On that note could the "greater entity" create a new universe hidden from all others?
Just a few random thoughts,
William Holder
In most, but not all cases, universes (and by that I mean the sort of universes present in D&D) are created by a Time Lord who voluntarily sunders part of their own inherent power to give birth to what we would call 'big bang'...mere cosmic indigestion* to them of course.
*or cosmic intercourse depending on how you want to perceive their immaculate conception.
This universe grows within them like a fetus in the womb.
This is much the same way that the Supreme Being initially populated the metaverse with splinters of its own power (the time lords and high lords). Although the Supreme Being created seven surrogate 'wombs' (super-universes) to let the time lords roam.
Depending on the individual Time Lord, some will create the universe to 'lord over', to experiment with, or simply to let it grow and flourish of its own accord. Time Lords have no alignment and their actions are alien and unfathomable but within infinity all things are possible.
Once a time lord uses its power to give birth to the universe, it becomes a demiurge.
Does that mean a Time Lord can have control over multiple universes at the same time? or by giving birth to a universe it ensures that a Time Lord now a Demiurge presides over only one universe at a time? And does giving birth to a universe give it some greater claim to that universe so it can not be usurped while in it's weakened condition?
A Time Lord in control of multiple universes is referred to as a High Lord; the most powerful High Lord presides as the Supreme Being, holding such station until it is usurped or retires.
Does that mean a Time Lord can have control over multiple universes at the same time?
As Pssthpok mentioned (thanks dude) A Time Lord controlling multiple universes is a High Lord.
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Originally Posted by sirwmholder
or by giving birth to a universe it ensures that a Time Lord now a Demiurge presides over only one universe at a time?
Its an interesting question. What happens if a High Lord gives birth to a universe. My first thought would be that the High Lord will drop one universe in terms of power/status.
e.g. A triad would become a duad for instance.
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Originally Posted by sirwmholder
And does giving birth to a universe give it some greater claim to that universe so it can not be usurped while in it's weakened condition?
Well its status will depend on how many sidereals it creates. Any usurper will of course have to take on Demiurge + Sidereals.
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Originally Posted by sirwmholder
Thanks for your time,
Even if I am not available at the time I am sure someone else will be nice enough to stop by and respond.
As a confused customer, I guess this thread would be as good as any to post...anyways. I bought both Ascension and the Bestiary a while back, and then my computer crashed and all my stuff was gone, and when I got back to here to get my pdfs that I purchased through this site, I couldn't find it. I noticed a lot has been changed and I couldn't find anything in the FAQ for it, so...what do I do?
As a confused customer, I guess this thread would be as good as any to post...anyways. I bought both Ascension and the Bestiary a while back, and then my computer crashed and all my stuff was gone, and when I got back to here to get my pdfs that I purchased through this site, I couldn't find it. I noticed a lot has been changed and I couldn't find anything in the FAQ for it, so...what do I do?
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