Where to place these figures in the divine scale?

[Fieari]

I've been thinking about statting up some more religious/philosophical concepts, but I'm a little shaky as to where to put them.

What I'm focusing on right now is the Judaic concept of WISDOM, as seen in Proverbs, and then Platonic Forms.

Now, my confusion comes from this... abstract concepts personified, such as wisdom, or love, or whatever, tend to be in the Cosmic realm in the Krustiverse, which would suggest Wisdom being a First One. And yet, proverbs places WISDOM as being there at the creation of the universe, and is even instrumental in that creation. That puts WISDOM as nearly Akashic! Or if not Akashic, then at least Supernal, at the Lipika level.

Which leads to the Platonic forms, which have a similar problem. Depending on whether you look at Plato, Aristotle, or Plotinus, the Forms are either an aspect of "THE ONE/THE HIGHEST/THE GOOD" or even above said one. Are they Akashic, Supernal, Eternal, or merely Cosmic?

[historian]

Fieari, you'll have to await a definitive answer from U_K but I thought I would throw my $.02 in.

Now, my confusion comes from this... abstract concepts personified, such as wisdom, or love, or whatever, tend to be in the Cosmic realm in the Krustiverse, which would suggest Wisdom being a First One. And yet, proverbs places WISDOM as being there at the creation of the universe, and is even instrumental in that creation. That puts WISDOM as nearly Akashic! Or if not Akashic, then at least Supernal, at the Lipika level.

I think much of this would depend on how "Universe" is defined therein and whether WISDOM was created concurrently or actually took part in the creation. If "Universe" is simply a single reality then I would assume WISDOM is either 1) a First One or 2) a Time Lord turned Demiurge depending on whether WISDOM 1) was born with the Universe or 2) actually created the Universe.

If we're talking about multiple realities then I would assume WISDOM is a High Lord. My sense of the Lipika's role is not that of creator but of preservationist.

Of course, there is the outside interpretation of Wisdom as Supernal (AR or SB) but this would seem to fly in the face of what little I know about the literature that you are citing.

[Upper_Krust]

Hey guys!

I think this whole thing depends on your definition of wisdom and what wisdom means.

Is wisdom just wisdom, or is wisdom everything, are we nothing without wisdom? Its all liable to get very existentialist.

And yet, proverbs places WISDOM as being there at the creation of the universe, and is even instrumental in that creation. That puts WISDOM as nearly Akashic! Or if not Akashic, then at least Supernal, at the Lipika level.

...yes but, which universe? Also is that a universe, or multiverse/supra-universe?

Personally I'd just make the abstract personifications of portfolios Sidereals, with the more fundamental (to the universe) the portfolio the higher it goes.

Of course you could always say that certain time lords/high lords exist who are sentient universes/multiverses where a single portfolio dominated over all others.

[Fieari]

So, First One, possibly Demiurge if you stretched things a bit. Makes sense. The Forms would likely be around there too, I take it?

[paradox42]

If you're referring to the WISDOM that is named "Sophia" or some variant spelling thereof, then it's the same entity the Gnostics defined as the lowest of the Aeons. So it'd be a Time Lord, albeit a little one. Sophia created IALDABAOTH which created the flawed physical universe and set itself up as ruler of it. Ialdabaoth (which also has variant spellings) is the Demiurge. Sophia is "above" Ialdabaoth in power and is outside the physical universe in the "eternal realms," which solidly pegs it as a Time Lord.

I admit to not being familiar with the book of Proverbs specifically, but I have a translation of the Gnostic Gospels that I've been reading through slowly. Gnosticism is really the primary source for the sorts of ideas of eternity that UK represents in game terms as Eternal-tier Immortals.

Platonic Forms, since the very term "Monad" comes from his philosophy as I recall, are almost certainly Eternal-level beings. However, you could reasonably do them as First Ones if you want to limit yourself to one universe, I think. You'd then just have to be sure each Platonic Form had its own Portfolio, since First Ones always have a double.