Immortals Handbook - Godsend

[Alzrius]

If it's not too presumptuous of me, I wanted to start a new thread for this. For those who don't know, this is the blurb about this book from U_K's website.

August 2008: Immortals Handbook: Godsend (3/3.5 Edition) - My farewell to 3.5, will include the gods part of of the previously titled Gods & Monsters, Version 6 of the CR/EL document, some new monsters from me as well as all the Design an Epic Monster Competition winners, will also likely include elements planned for Grimoire and Chronicle such as dimensional magic rules, new artifacts and divine realm encounter creator.

So far it looks like there'll be some good stuff in there. Apparently it'll be light on the monsters though; I was hoping more from G&M and the next few Epic Bestiaries would be able to make it in there. That said, I really can't wait to see guys like Abraxas and Tetragrammaton.

U_K, while I know it may seem redundant, I think it'd be worthwhile to also put the 3.5 "freebies" material from your website in the book also - clearly not all of it, but things like the new monsters, the listing for neutronium items, etc. It'd be handy as a reference (since it's not always convenient to log onto the web to find something), and it'd bring that material to a wider audience.

Either way, I can't wait to see the book, hopefully soon (yeah, I'm an optimist )!

[Upper_Krust]

Originally Posted by Alzrius

If it's not too presumptuous of me, I wanted to start a new thread for this. For those who don't know, this is the blurb about this book from U_K's website.

Thanks Alzrius mate - should have thought of that myself. The Ascension thread is getting a bit unwieldy as is the 4E thread.

So far it looks like there'll be some good stuff in there. Apparently it'll be light on the monsters though; I was hoping more from G&M and the next few Epic Bestiaries would be able to make it in there. That said, I really can't wait to see guys like Abraxas and Tetragrammaton.

Well it'll have all the competition entries. I suppose it will be a bit light on new 3.5 monsters from me.

Although I still say converting from 3 to 4 and vice versa is pretty easy, I don't see what all the fuss is about.

U_K, while I know it may seem redundant, I think it'd be worthwhile to also put the 3.5 "freebies" material from your website in the book also - clearly not all of it, but things like the new monsters, the listing for neutronium items, etc. It'd be handy as a reference (since it's not always convenient to log onto the web to find something), and it'd bring that material to a wider audience.

Great idea!

Either way, I can't wait to see the book, hopefully soon (yeah, I'm an optimist )!

I'm hoping August or worst case scenario September.

I have 3 weeks holidays in August (one week of that may be spent visiting London and attending the Gencon UK). I may also take one months unpaid leave (either September or October) and give things a bit of a jumpstart.

[Reveille]

Will this be straight to pdf, or will it be another hardback under the Flaming Cobra imprint?

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

I am going to guess straight-to-pdf. Mongoose may (I am not sure) want to switch to 4E, and beginning a print run in September or October of a 3E book likely would interfere with that. (Although I don't know the details of who exactly must comply with the 4E GSL '3E kill clause', I would assume it would apply to Mongoose in this case.)

[Alzrius]

The question of Mongoose possibly releasing the book as a Flaming Cobra imprint is an interesting one. Simply put, if Mongoose retains any sort of right to print copies, how would that intersect with Eternity Publishing putting out GSL products, and so having to terminate OGL product lines? It could be interesting if Mongoose wants to keep printing the Epic Bestiary.

And of course, U_K, I'll still lay on the editing for Godsend! Someone has to keep you honest!

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there Reveille!

Originally Posted by Reveille

Will this be straight to pdf, or will it be another hardback under the Flaming Cobra imprint?

At this juncture its hard to say exactly what will happen with Godsend and the 3.5 Ascension print versions (although I can assure you its more or less up to me what happens).

It sort of depends on how quickly or slowly I think I can have the 4E stuff ready. If I have Godsend and Ascension 3.5 finished in August (?) then we had a print release in September (I'm speculating - in case thats not obvious), then I think Mongoose would probably want at least a 4-6 month window of sales to get the most out of it. Which would mean no 4E stuff from me before at least 1st January 2009 (which to be fair is a date I might have trouble making anyway - this being me).

[mercucio]

I'm glad to see this is coming out because you'll be losing me as a customer with the switch to 4.

[Upper_Krust]

Originally Posted by mercucio

I'm glad to see this is coming out because you'll be losing me as a customer with the switch to 4.

Well I'm sorry to hear that Mercucio mate, no hard feelings on my part. It was always my intention to do both (converting 4E Material to 3E) but with that option stripped from me I have to make a choice based on what I think is the best way forward and as far as I can see, that means 4th Edition.

I regret that means leaving some of you behind (although I still maintain converting from one system to the other is relatively straightforward).

The excess baggage attached to 3E has just gradually wore me down.

[Belzamus]

While I'm immensely grateful for Godsend, and for you giving the consideration to your 3ed fans to even do that much, I think I'll still be purchasing your products, U_K. If converting back to 3.5 is as easy as you say it is then I'll happily do so to use them in my 3.5 games. Or, who knows, maybe you'll be able to make me actually like 4.0. I mean, I would imagine that the 4.0 stats would at least give the coneptual ideas of the monsters' abilities, which could be transferred into 3.5 easily enough. Combined with the flavor, it shouldn't be too hard to extrapolate the rest, especially considering your CR conversion table. (If only to get a ballpark of the monster's level)

[Particleman]

Howdy UK.

This will be my first post on these forums as I've been a long time fan and, indeed, customer. I have some questions for you and I hope this is the appropriate place for them as the ASCENSION thread seems to have disappeared.

1) I think I basically understand the construction of the divinity templates, however, I was wondering, how do you intend that ECL is handled when an immortal PC advances from one divine rank to the next? Does the immortal basically lose levels/HD when they advance to a new divine rank?

2) Artifacts. It seems that the artifacts would grow in power as the PC advances, this much I get. But how are they initially created? Does it cost the PC quintessence to do so?

That's all for now. I look forward to GODSEND eagerly; however, I too must list myself among those who will be sad to see you go down the 4e path.

Cheers.

[Reveille]

Wait a tic. Did I miss something? Is Godsend going to be for 4E and not 3E?

[dante58701]

Godsend is 3.5. The last 3.5 book Krusty will be doing. Although I'm inclined to disagree about this being an optimum decision as all the people I know who bought 4.0 are already pawning off their books on ebay due to immense disappointment and WOTC is apparently already working on 4.5 (snickers at the absurdity).

In any case I'm, at the least, very happy that Krusty is finishing up Godsend as a goodbye to 3.5, rather than scrapping his 3.5 fan base altogether. I have to admit there is a lot of disappointment regarding the switch to 4.0 in our town, but at least Krusty was nice enough to give us this magnificent final farewell.

I'm hoping, like others, that he includes the 3.5 material from his website and personal notes as bonus material, much in the fashion of Monte Cook. =^.^=

[Belzamus]

but at least Krusty was nice enough to give us this magnificent final farewell.

Hey! Do not recall your falcons before the hunt is done! We don't KNOW that it'll be magnificent yet... of course, since this is U_K we're dealing with, maybe that's an exception. There does tend to be just a small bit of divinity in his ideas.

Oh, and a question for U_K.

Are there going to be any weapon/armor enchantments in Godsend? As it stands, when I make a high-level Immortal, it doesn't matter if they convert their items to divine abilities or not since the items usually just end up granting them divine abilities anyways!

And how about rules for spells over 9th level? Any kind of new magic to be included?

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Belzamus mate!

Got your email by the way (sorted out my email problems...also found your email Paradox42).

Originally Posted by Belzamus

While I'm immensely grateful for Godsend, and for you giving the consideration to your 3ed fans to even do that much, I think I'll still be purchasing your products, U_K.

Thans for that.

Originally Posted by Belzamus

If converting back to 3.5 is as easy as you say it is then I'll happily do so to use them in my 3.5 games. Or, who knows, maybe you'll be able to make me actually like 4.0. I mean, I would imagine that the 4.0 stats would at least give the coneptual ideas of the monsters' abilities, which could be transferred into 3.5 easily enough. Combined with the flavor, it shouldn't be too hard to extrapolate the rest, especially considering your CR conversion table. (If only to get a ballpark of the monster's level)

I already have a (3E) CR to (4E) Level conversion system on my website, so once you have that you have the basis for the character/monster.

The only differences are going to be those conceptual changes I may instigate. A lot of my 4E 'conversions' may not be conversions but more a case of reimaginings. Angels would be the obvious one that springs to mind (been doing some 4E brainstorming for Gods & Monsters).

[Upper_Krust]

Originally Posted by Particleman

Howdy UK.

Hey there Particleman!

Originally Posted by Particleman

This will be my first post on these forums as I've been a long time fan and, indeed, customer.

Thank you very much for your support and nice to meet you 'so to speak'

Originally Posted by Particleman

I have some questions for you and I hope this is the appropriate place for them as the ASCENSION thread seems to have disappeared.

Try widening your "Show threads of the past month...etc" field.

But ask away - no harm done.

Originally Posted by Particleman

1) I think I basically understand the construction of the divinity templates, however, I was wondering, how do you intend that ECL is handled when an immortal PC advances from one divine rank to the next? Does the immortal basically lose levels/HD when they advance to a new divine rank?

No, the listed Hit Dice minimums are simply suggestive, not a hard and fast rule. However, they are required to get the full effect of the template.

For instance, a 20 HD Lesser God (where the suggested minimum HD is 40) will not gain the full net worth of the template (ECL +40). Usually I suggest that you halvethe difference.

e.g. An NPC with 20 HD/Levels and the Lesser God Template (normally 20 + 40 = 60) will only be ECL 50 instead of 60, because the difference between the HD and the template (where the template is greater) is halved (in this case 20 is reduced to 10). Challenge Rating is 2/3rds ECL so in this case the NPC is CR 33 (not CR 40).

However, for PCs you still make sure they use the full ECL for determining how much EXP they need. So the same PC would still be ECL 60 (effectively 60th-level and need 61st-level EXP to ascend)

Originally Posted by Particleman

2) Artifacts. It seems that the artifacts would grow in power as the PC advances, this much I get. But how are they initially created? Does it cost the PC quintessence to do so?

Yes. You use Quintessence in this manner as you would EXP when creating magic items.

Initially I was planning to have 1 QP = 10 EXP, but I seem to recall we had some discussion on these forums about that and 1 QP = 25 EXP was decided as superior.

Originally Posted by Particleman

That's all for now. I look forward to GODSEND eagerly;

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Particleman

however, I too must list myself among those who will be sad to see you go down the 4e path.

I'm still bewildered by those who can look at 4E and still think 3E is in any way superior. However, that said, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I harbour no hard feelings or ill will to such people.

Originally Posted by Particleman

Cheers.

All the best.

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there dante mate!

Originally Posted by dante58701

Godsend is 3.5. The last 3.5 book Krusty will be doing.

Indeed.

Originally Posted by dante58701

Although I'm inclined to disagree about this being an optimum decision as all the people I know who bought 4.0 are already pawning off their books on ebay due to immense disappointment

I'm not.

Originally Posted by dante58701

and WOTC is apparently already working on 4.5 (snickers at the absurdity).

Unlikely.

Originally Posted by dante58701

In any case I'm, at the least, very happy that Krusty is finishing up Godsend as a goodbye to 3.5, rather than scrapping his 3.5 fan base altogether. I have to admit there is a lot of disappointment regarding the switch to 4.0 in our town, but at least Krusty was nice enough to give us this magnificent final farewell.

Well I don't know about magnificent, I'll do my best though.

I'm hoping, like others, that he includes the 3.5 material from his website and personal notes as bonus material, much in the fashion of Monte Cook. =^.^=

Certainly the website stuff that I can use will be in there. Can't have Godzilla stats and so forth obviously. Not sure about 'personal notes'...its all personal to me.

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again!

Originally Posted by Belzamus

Oh, and a question for U_K.

Are there going to be any weapon/armor enchantments in Godsend? As it stands, when I make a high-level Immortal, it doesn't matter if they convert their items to divine abilities or not since the items usually just end up granting them divine abilities anyways!

And how about rules for spells over 9th level? Any kind of new magic to be included?

Yes there will be new magic items/artifacts for Godsend and the Dimensional Magic system (and some sample spells). It won't be anywhere as extensive as I was planning for Grimoire, but it should give people a start on it.

[Alzrius]

Out of curiosity, U_K, have you thought about simply using 4E mechanics without the GSL? Several companies seem to be planning on doing so, if they aren't already: Adamant Entertainment, Goodman Games (maybe), and even Kenzer Co. (though that's not certain, but it seems to be the case).

The only downside seems to be that you can't use the logo/phrase "Dungeons & Dragons" on the cover, but on the plus side, you can avoid all of the GSL's many drawbacks.

If it seems premature to board that bandwagon, then there's still plenty of time to wait and see what happens (e.g. if WotC sues anyone for doing that) between now and when you put out your first 4E book. If there's no legal penalty, then would you consider doing that?

[paradox42]

Originally Posted by Upper_Krust

(sorted out my email problems...also found your email Paradox42).

Eeexcellent!

Originally Posted by Belzamus

If converting back to 3.5 is as easy as you say it is

It isn't. A quick comparison between the 3.5 Phane and Atropal (to say nothing of the Tarrasque), and the 4E version of each, is more than enough to prove that. In some ways the 4E versions are improvements, in others not, but whatever your opinion of the new stats the monsters are clearly very different beasts in the different editions. Straightforward conversion will not be possible with the majority of powerful monsters, from what I've seen- every case will need to be done individually and re-imagined.

Originally Posted by Upper_Krust

I already have a (3E) CR to (4E) Level conversion system on my website, so once you have that you have the basis for the character/monster.

The only differences are going to be those conceptual changes I may instigate. A lot of my 4E 'conversions' may not be conversions but more a case of reimaginings. Angels would be the obvious one that springs to mind (been doing some 4E brainstorming for Gods & Monsters).

The level conversion chart will likely be a good base for "downgrading" between editions, but as UK admits himself, it's not often going to be a true conversion in the sense that a clear procedure of calculating changes to numbers will work.

And for the record, I do now have the three 4E books myself, and have read through the entire PHB and up to chapter 5 of the DMG. I've also checked out the monster rules in the MM, and paged through the stats of some of the monsters I found most interesting (hence the above declarations). I do not plan to change my game to 4th Edition, and will not be purchasing any more 4th Edition books for quite some time (if ever); the game has some good ideas, but for me not enough to outweigh the bad ones. I'll probably take some of the good ideas and adapt them as best I can to my older edition game, such as skill challenges. The rest, I will discard and ignore. I did like the suggestion somebody posted on another thread, though, about taking 4E Immortals products and doing 3.5 or Pathfinder versions of them; I'd even throw my hat in the ring to do work on such conversions in fact.

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Alzrius mate!

Originally Posted by Alzrius

Out of curiosity, U_K, have you thought about simply using 4E mechanics without the GSL? Several companies seem to be planning on doing so, if they aren't already: Adamant Entertainment, Goodman Games (maybe), and even Kenzer Co. (though that's not certain, but it seems to be the case).

The only downside seems to be that you can't use the logo/phrase "Dungeons & Dragons" on the cover, but on the plus side, you can avoid all of the GSL's many drawbacks.

If it seems premature to board that bandwagon, then there's still plenty of time to wait and see what happens (e.g. if WotC sues anyone for doing that) between now and when you put out your first 4E book. If there's no legal penalty, then would you consider doing that?

I'll be paying close attention to what transpires over the next month or two - I haven't signed up to 4E yet. So maybe this is the answer although surely it can't be that easy...can it?