Epic/Immortal Prestige Classes

[Kerrick]

Originally Posted by Belzamus

It's in Complete Divine too. They steal spells and SLAs from opponents, similar to a Spellthief.

Ah.

Taking into account the Maskim in the Bestiary and its ability to SA on every hit, I'd hardly say that Void Presence is overpowered for an Immortals Handbook game. (I'm assuming that's the ability that makes every hit a SA.) Level 30 does seem appropriate though.

Oh, for an Immortals game? No, not overpowered. I was talking standard D&D.

I think it's a cool idea, but I think we might have differing opinions on what's too powerful and what's not. My group likes to optimize with Ascension, which already sets the bar high, and that's the system I design for and how I gauge balance, whereas you have your own modified ruleset, right?

Yeah, I think your idea of "overpowered" is a lot higher than mine, especially if you're using Immortals Handbook rules. Project Phoenix is a lot closer to standard D&D rules, though I'm still getting a handle on balancing epic stuff - RAW epic is so wonky it's hard to tone it down to be "balanced" while still "more powerful than pre-20th level".

Well, it's more to the point that there aren't THAT many concepts for epic feats and class abilities, and you want to avoid an epic PrC being nothing more than a collection of feats.

Well yeah, definitely.

How about the reverse, using Death Attack DC for the spell's DC?

At those levels, spell DC is likely going to be higher. DA DC is 10+1/2 class level + Int mod + mods. Spell DC is 10 + spell level + stat mod + misc bonuses. There are very few things that add to a death attack DC (one feat that I know of, and maybe some class abilities), whereas there's a crapton of stuff to boost spell DCs, and any caster worth the name is going boost his casting stat.

Also, I'm having visions of delivering a Death Attack via Finger of Death.

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking too.

Uses per day are SO 20 levels ago. I suppose if you're going for a more...mellow game, than yeah, some restrictions should apply. I'm a bit loose as a DM when it comes to that (which I make up for by throwing appalling challenges at the party)

Yeah, yeah. It's a lot easier to power up than power down, IMO - why don't we make it for straight up D&D, then you can tweak it out for your level of play?

I don't really agree, but that's fine. I wouldn't bat an eye at getting full SA/DA and full Arcane Spellcasting, especially with a rogue's chasis. It's your idea, though. I don't really have super ninja-mages in my setting, which is what I build PrCs for, so I'm just offering input.

That's cool. I'm just tossing out ideas. My line of thought, though, is that a) it's not a pure caster class; b) the character's already getting a boost with the rogue HD/saves (good Ref/Will, right?), and c) it's more of a class centered around assassination and stealth than gaining spell power (like, say, the Archmage), so a stunted progression makes more sense. And, too, I'm just tired of seeing all these full-caster-progression classes.

True, but what's to stop every epic rogue from taking both?

Nothing. Nor should there be. Although personally, I'd either rewrite the VIn, or cannibalize it for this class. It's a mess.

Well, I prefer to not have worthless abilities that lag 20 levels behind my character level at epic, but whatever. I suppose even 1/2 casting can't hurt a rogue.

Depends where you set the prereqs. If you're aiming for L50 entry, then yeah - you'll have to have some serious abilities. I'm not very good at designing for that level of play, though. *shrug* Adding rogue levels to caster level just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Your call.

I'm asking for opinions here. Feel free to disagree and put forth your own ideas. I chose that because it's rather descriptive of what the class IS - it's an arcane assassin/thief. I think. We should really start back at the beginning and figure out an overarching theme before discussing abilities... What does the class do, what is its purpose, and who would be best suited to take it.

[Belzamus]

Sounds good to me.

So, if you can put together a basic layout, maybe, that we can use as a foundation. I'd be happy to try and make it work for "normal" epic play and then work on an Immortals version afterwards.

I'm thinking an assassin/warlock should be a separate class too, so I think I'll start working on some ideas for that.

Also, wow Death Attack kind of sucks. An Ascension only adds an epic feat that cuts it down to 1 round. There's a feat in the ELH for +2 dc, but that's hardly worth it.

Any ideas on how to make it better?

[shadethief]

How about building in a class ability that allows you to add your class level, or your primary spellcasting attribute to the DC? It's similiar to the abilities in Ascension that let you add your divine rank, but that includes all items that involve a DC. This would only allow you to increase the Death attack DC.

[Belzamus]

Well, then you get the issue of adding INT twice if you're an Assassin/Wizard. But something along those lines would work I think.

For another ability, how about being able to either steal or just "use up" a certain number of spell levels by forgoing Sneak Attack dice?

[Kerrick]

I was turning this over in my head a little bit this morning, thinking about the concept. Shade says he wants elements of the assassin, the rogue, and the wizard, so we'll go with that - an arcane assassin who can steal others' abilities to augment his own.

Now. Let's figure this thing will be mid-epic, around 25th-30th level. I'll do the prereqs later, but it gives us a good baseline for power.

So, we've got...

Death attack (duh). Based on later suggestions, we'll make this an Arcane Death Strike, where you can infuse the DA with a touch spell, which takes effect when you make a successful DA.

Sneak attack (duh). Toss in 3d6 of sneak attack dice.

Touch attack to "steal" attributes/supernatural abilities/spells (Scaling ability; you get spells first, then Su, then stats, or something. Not sure how this would fit into the overall archetype, though).

On a successful death attack that kills the target, you gain one or more of the target's spells known/prepared. (Possible, though it's already included in the above.)

Can expend spell slots (either your own or those stolen; not sure on this) to... go invisible, dimension door, HiPS, or something else thief-like. (I like this idea, personally, and I'd love to find a way to implement it.)

The ability to cast spells without anyone being able to detect them, like Subtle Spell, but no Spellcraft check to detect it. (This would be a low-level ability, 1st or 2nd.)


Since I like to do scaling abilities along "paths", I'd organize them into Stealth, Killing, and Theft (tentatively; I'm running stream-of-consciousness here). So Stealth would cover stuff like Subtle Spell and the ability to expend spell slots to HiPS and whatnot; Killing covers the Arcane Death Strike et al; and Theft is the "steal abilities" abilities. Thoughts?

[Kerrick]

I would've posted this last night, but the servers were pitching a fit. :P

Anyway, I spent some time thinking about this at work, and I came up with the following. I know this is duplicating some of what I mentioned earlier, but I'm refining a bit, and tentatively assigning levels now.

Death attack/assassination path. This would be levels 1/4/7/10 (yeah, there's no L10 ability yet - need a good one).

Levels of class stack with assassin levels for DCs.

Arcane Death Attack: Can infuse your weapon with a touch/ranged touch spell; if you make a sneak attack/death attack, it takes effect.

Sacrifice a spell of any level to create a dagger of magical energy. The dagger has an enhancement bonus equal to the spell's level and lasts for 1 round/spell level or until you make one sneak attack/DA per spell level, whichever comes first. You can't use this ability with Arcane Death Attack.

Theft Path: I'm thinking 2/5/8 for these.

Spellstealer: You can steal a target's spell or SLA by making a touch attack. The target must be flat-footed, and you have to make a Sleight of Hand check vs. DC 10 + HD (or something; there should be a save here - maybe a simple Will save?). You gain the use of that spell/SLA for 24 hours, until you gain a new one, or until you go unconscious, and the target loses it for the same period.

Soulstealer: As above, but you can steal Su abilities.

Ranged Spellstealer: As Spellstealer, but you can do it with a spectral hand spell.

I haven't come up with anything for Stealth, but I'll put my brain to it today.

[Upper_Krust]

Hey guys!

I think the three key Rogue abilities are Sneak Attack, the ability to 'Steal' and the ability to 'Hide' or somehow avoid damage.

The higher you progress the more unbelievable these abilities should get. I'd probably try and think up some themes to represent every 10 level 'step'.

eg. Steal magic, steal abilities, steal souls, steal time etc.

...oh and Arcane Assassin is a cool name.

[Kerrick]

Originally Posted by Upper_Krust

Hey guys!

I think the three key Rogue abilities are Sneak Attack, the ability to 'Steal' and the ability to 'Hide' or somehow avoid damage.

Sneak attack goes without saying. I was going to toss in SA at 3/6/9, independent of anything else. I hadn't thought about hiding/avoiding damage, but that might be treading on the Shadowdancer's toes too much. Course, we could make this something that requires Shadowdancer and Assassin... that would be an epic class. I don't think I ever posted a link to my revised Shadowdancer, but I'd work off this one (alt skills notwithstanding) simply because it's better balanced and adheres better to the Shadowdancer's archetype.

So... we make the class (still unsure on the name) require death attack, HiPS, about 15-20 ranks in Hide/MS, and ability to cast 6th level arcane spells. That puts it around L25.

Getting back to the additional abilities... this class is centered around misdirection and evasion - similar to the Shadowdancer, but more arcane in nature. He can create mirror images, shadow doubles, distracting noises/images (but not full-on illusions), and at higher levels, can dimension slip (like the SD's shadow walk, but more powerful). It's got to tie into the arcane caster requirements, though. The ability to avoid damage could be tied into sacrificing spells - blow a spell to dimension slip or something, but I dunno... there's got to be some way to tie the arcane caster requirements into this to make it a coherent whole (so that the arcane death attack isn't just an add-on ability), but I can't think of anything that's not a kludge.

[Belzamus]

Dragon 297 had a bunch of epic prestige classes, one of which, I just remembered, was an epic assassin with advanced spellcasting through Improved Spell Capacity and an expanded list of 6, 7, 8, and 9th level Assassin spells. Might be worth considering, though I do think it's from 3.0

If nobody has it, I'll see if I can dig it up.

[Kerrick]

297 would've been 3.5... that wasn't too long ago.

Anyway, I was thinking about this earlier, and I think we've got two different classes now - one is centered around stealing spells/abilities, and the other is an illusionist type, sort of an uber-Shadowdancer. Both work off the same base - rogue and mage - but I think the spell-stealer is more of the assassin type (steals your abilities and uses them against you) while the other is more of a straight rogue (though he can be an assassin; the class itself, though, doesn't include or require death attack). This prevents us from trying to shoehorn abilities into a class that doesn't need them, and I like to keep the class to where you can describe it with a single sentence.

So, I'll ponder on the Mageblade/Arcane Assassin/whatever first, then do the other one later. Y'all are free to toss out ideas, too.

[Kerrick]

Slight aside: This request and subsequent thought exercise has stimulated my creative juices again; I went back over some of my unfinished PrCs and started jotting down ideas for those too. I finally finished one that I've been wresting with for awhile, and can close up a couple more this weekend. Thanks!

On topic: I forgot to mention that I've got a couple low-epic PrCs myself... the Cloud Dancer (acrobatic fighters who can literally dance on clouds), the Reality Shifter (master of space and time), and the Souleater (mystical assassins who aren't living or dead, but something in between). The last one I don't recommend for PC use, since it's rather powerful (for standard D&D; it would probably be all right for an IH game).

[Belzamus]

I like the Soul Eater a lot, it reminds of Cotillion the Rope, Patron God of Assassins, from the Malazan Book of the Fallen, who, among other feats, decerberates people with his rope through their eye-sockets. Fun.

That said, there's already a class of the same name in the Book of Vile Darkness that's not even remotely similar. Not sure if that's a problem or not.

I haven't had the chance to look at the other two in-depth yet.

Also, for the class we're working on, I'm thinking it definitely needs to focus on the stealing aspect, since we already have Void Incarnate for stealth and Soul Reaver from Dragon 297 to handle improved assassin abilities and spells.

[Kerrick]

Originally Posted by Belzamus

I like the Soul Eater a lot, it reminds of Cotillion the Rope, Patron God of Assassins, from the Malazan Book of the Fallen, who, among other feats, decerberates people with his rope through their eye-sockets. Fun.

Eeugh. Mine was based on an assassin from one of those role-playing, Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books I read when I was teenager. The assassin in question was a cloaked figure that used a cloth garrote; I made up the rest myself.

That said, there's already a class of the same name in the Book of Vile Darkness that's not even remotely similar. Not sure if that's a problem or not.

BoVD. WotC's version of "evil". *snicker*

Also, for the class we're working on, I'm thinking it definitely needs to focus on the stealing aspect, since we already have Void Incarnate for stealth and Soul Reaver from Dragon 297 to handle improved assassin abilities and spells.

I've got some ideas. I was thinking about this the other day, and I thought that necromancy would best fit the stealing aspect, and a necromantic assassin would be really cool - it lends itself to the other abilities as well. Then it hit me - I already have a PrC like that. Well, it's not really mine; a friend of mine made it, but I rewrote it, so I'm going to adapt some of the abilities. It centers around stealing skills, feats, memories, stats, and even the victim's skin from someone you've killed (we had to make a new skill called Craft (taxidermy) to cover that one), which you could use to assume the victim's identity.

Anyway, I'm on a PrC kick lately, like I said. I've already finished up four that I had lying around, and I'm working on a fifth, which will clear out my backlog (finally). I'll post some ideas for this one (the Maleficus Lamnia?) later today when I have a chance.

[Kerrick]

I'm a little burned out, since I finished and posted 4 (!) PrCs earlier today, but I'll post some rough ideas. Maleficus Lamnia is still a working name; I tossed it in as a placeholder for the time being. I changed the focus a little bit - instead of it being strictly mage/assassin, I opened it up to clerics as well; thus, we can have clerics of the god of murder taking levels in this as well, though necromantic spells are still more the purview of the mages, for some reason.


The Maleficus Lamniae (Dark Blades) are a sect of necromancers who have turned their skills to the assassin's arts. They use negative energy to steal abilities and even life energy from their victims before they kill them, leaving them as drained, lifeless husks.

HD: d6

L1: ???

L2: ???

L3: Necromantic death attack (you can use a necromantic touch/ranged touch spell like enervation as a death attack; it all uses one DC (the death attack DC), and a successful save avoids both effects.

L4: ???

L5: ???

L6: Vampiric death attack (you inflict negative levels with a death attack, gaining the energy as healing)

L7: ???

L8:

L9: ??? death attack (another DA ability)

L10: ???

At this point, I've tentatively got Steal skills (use the victim's base skill ranks in place of your own), physical and mental attributes, spells/SLAs, and Ex and Su abilities. They'd be every other level, probably the even ones; since we have DA abilities at 3/6/9, all we'd need is something at 2/5/8. Oh, and of course it gets spellcasting at every other level.

[dyspro]

I was looking around some of the older threads here and I came across one that intrigued me enough to actually work on it. Phantom Llama originally posted a request for a prestige class 9/17/2006.
My first attempt at an epic prestige class. Comments appreciated. Is it EPIC enough?

Colossus Slayer
Off in the distance, the sounds of thunder can be heard, but there are no clouds in the sky. The ground shakes fervently as the enormous stone construct lumbers toward the village. People scatter for their lives, hoping to escape the notice of the immense monster. However, one person stands still waiting for the creature’s approach. His resolve is firm. There is no fear in his eyes or his heart, for he has defeated many of these before and today will be no different. He is the colossus slayer.
Hit Die: d10

Requirements
To qualify to be a colossus slayer, a character must fulfill the following criteria.
Base Attack Bonus: +35
Skills: Climb 40 ranks
Feats: Clever Wrestler ^CW, Giantbane ^CW, Improved Critical
Epic Feats: Legendary Wrestler


Class Skills
The colossus slayer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Tumble (Dex)
Skill Points at each level: 3 + intelligence modifier


Class Features
All of these features were designed to combat larger constructs though these same tactics can be used against living creatures. However for any of these tactics to work, the opponent must be at least three size categories larger than the user. So a medium sized humanoid can only use these tactics against opponents that are at least gargantuan in size.
Leverage (Ex): The colossus slayer begins with the ability to effectively take away size advantages from his enemies. Whenever the colossus slayer is attempting a grapple or is being grappled his opponent’s size bonus is reduced by two sizes. So a gargantuan sized creature only has the size bonus for a large creature, a colossal sized creature has the size bonus for a huge creature, and so on. The size bonus can only be negated through this ability. Leverage can only even the playing field.
For every two levels thereafter, the size bonus is reduced by another one. So at the third level of the prestige class for a medium sized character, the gargantuan sized creature only has the size bonus for a medium creature and is thus effectively negated. A fifth level medium colossus slayer can negate the size bonus of a colossal creature.
Debilitating Strike (Ex): The colossus slayer is able to weaken his opponent through the use of this ability first gained at second level. Once per day when a critical hit is scored, the colossus slayer can choose to inflict additional ability damage to his opponent. The colossus slayer can choose which physical score can be reduced by 2d6 whether it is Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. Opponents immune to critical hits are not affected by this ability.
Combat Advantage (Ex): At his fourth level of colossus slayer, he is better able to land attacks on larger foes due to his ability to effectively climb aboard and harass his opponent. For every three ranks he has in the Climb skill, he gains a +1 competence bonus to hit. This bonus increases to +1 to hit for every two ranks he has in the Climb skill at the eighth level.


Level Special
1 leverage (size bonus to grapple reduced by two sizes)
2 debilitating strike 1/day
3 leverage (size bonus to grapple reduced by three sizes)
4 combat advantage (+1 to hit per 3 ranks in Climb)
5 leverage (size bonus to grapple reduced four sizes)
6 debilitating strike 2/day
7 leverage (size bonus to grapple reduced five sizes)
8 combat advantage (+1 to hit per 2 ranks in Climb)
9 leverage (size bonus to grapple reduced six sizes)
10 debilitating strike 3/day

[Upper_Krust]

Hey guys!

The Colossus Slayer is an interesting concept, though I wonder how viable the whole stripping size category advantage is with regards quickly calculating changes to the monster - no more problematic than the rest of 3E I suppose.

However, recently I have been tinkering with the idea of Mega sized creatures being potentially spread over multiple encounters.

[Spoilers ahead...sort of]

Case in point, the Egyptian Godslayer Ammut, who I wanted as an encounter in the Against the Reptile God 4E adventure. Ammut would be encountered within the titular Reptile God's Black Pyramid. I was thinking that the battle would be spread over four encounters in the necropolis section of the Pyramid. At first, the heroes would drop down into the necropolis and face an encounter on the back of the monster (initially the monster will seem more like a hazard). Then they'd realise what they were up against and face the monster itself (as well as the undead in the encounter). Once they bloody the beast they'd be able to attack it from the inside as well to assault its less well protected innards. However, when they slay it they realise that the monster cannot die because Anubis (God of the Dead) won't allow it. So they would first have to defeat Anubis (or drive him off, so he can't keep Ammut alive) and then beat the monster. All the while this thing would be rampaging around a massive necropolis, awakening undead as it disturbs their sleep (by desecrating their resting places).

So the Mega-monster would still have a normal stat-block, but it would also have a Hazard stat-block. It mays also have a number of weak points where you could attack a certain part of it to induce a condition (immobilize it by taking out a leg, weaken it by wounding its innards, blind it by striking at the eyes, etc.) or bypass a certain resistance.

[Erevanden]

I think I had about 15 ideas or thereabouts, I'll see if I can find any notes.

Upper Krust, please find the notes, hmmm (the curiosity is killing me !! )

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there Erevanden!

Originally Posted by Erevanden

Upper Krust, please find the notes, hmmm (the curiosity is killing me !! )

I'll have a hunt for them in a day or two (working next two nights including tonight), I think I have a vague idea where they might be hiding (actually just popped into my head as I read your message).

Off the top of my head I remember there was a Familiarist (spellcaster with multiple familiars which could combine and do stuff).

There was a martial prestige class pencilled down as "Mithril Drinker" who eventually turned into a magic weapon/artifact.

There was an Ioun 'Cyborg' who replaced body parts with Crystalline Limbs.

[dyspro]

all of those ideas sound awesome. i'd like to see them too

[Pssthpok]

Frankly, the idea of turning my PC into a weapon has been a terrible one since the Sword portfolio.