Epic/Immortal Prestige Classes

[Belzamus]

This is something I've noticed lacking around here. I remember WAY back U_K had some ideas for some, but I can't remember what thread that was or what they were.

I have two here that I've been working on, the Battle Ascendant and the Godslayer. They're...probably overpowered. Comments welcome, they're still works in progress.

And if anyone else has some high-epic prestige classes, feel free to post them. They're one of those things that haven't been given too much attention (mostly, I think, because there aren't that many concepts, really.)

I'll post them both in separate posts below.

[Belzamus]

Battle Ascendant

In the swarming carnage of a battlefield, surrounded by the bodies of his fallen comrades, a warrior is forced to surpass his limits. If he is to survive, he must become something more than mortal, an apotheosis of skill at arms that cannot be equaled.

This state of mind, of transcendent ability and focus, is called Battle Ascendancy, and is said to be a channeling of the spirits of ancient war-gods through mortal flesh. Rarely is the experience described in the same way by men who have undergone it. Some say that a cold, black fury overtakes them, much like a berserker’s rage. Others claim a state of martial nirvana, a oneness of the mind and body in perfect harmony. Then there are tales of men who are possessed by the savagery of a demon, slaying all before them without heed and becoming unstoppable machines of slaughter.

Legends speak of single men killing thousands by their own hand, leading their armies to triumph through miracles of battle-prowess, yet these men are not Battle Ascendants. A man my find the state in times of utter need, when he is pushed to the edge and all hope of victory has vanished, but this is only the beginning of the journey, for a true Battle Ascendant is a god upon the field of war, an unstoppable terror that cannot be stood against. They are masters of mind, soul, and body, turning all three into one supremely-lethal weapon. Armies scatter at the approach of such warrior, for a Battle Ascendant has reached the uttermost pinnacle of martial skill. He is able to stand against gods and cosmic forces with his transcendental mastery of war.

Only the greatest, most puissant warriors to have ever lived have even a chance to become Battle Ascendants. The path to Battle Ascendancy is one through the soul of the warrior. All weakness must be purged, and universal secrets, about both oneself and the nature of warfare, must be mastered.

Battle Ascendants come from all martial backgrounds and fight with all manner of weapons or styles, and indeed must be masters of their art in every form, able to effortlessly wield any weapon with skill to make gods envious. Yet though they are skilled with all weapons, each Battle Ascendant has one combat form that they are known for, and their ability in that discipline is the stuff of myth and saga.

Prerequisites:
Base Attack Bonus: +50
Skills: Martial Lore 53 Ranks
Feats: Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Specialization, Greater Critical, Greater Critical Multiplier, Weapon Mastery, Weapon Supremacy, [Greater Power Attack, Uncanny Power Attack] OR [Perfect Two Weapon Fighting, Uncanny Two Weapon Fighting] OR [Improved Manyshot, Sure Shot]
Special: The character must not possess Divine Rank

Hit Dice: d12
Base Attack Bonus: Full
Skill Points: 4+Intelligence Modifier
Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Heal, Jump, Listen, Martial Lore, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Tumble, Use Rope
Initiator Level: Full

1 Bonus Feat
2 Transcendent Edge
3 Reverie of War
4 War God
5 Bonus Feat
6 Battle Mastery
7 Superior Critical
8 Martial Lord
9 Reaping the Slaughterous Harvest 1/day
10 Bonus Feat
11 Superior Critical Multiplier
12 Battle Supremacy
13 Ten Thousand Years of Battle
14 Messiah of War
15 Bonus Feat
16 Martial Titan
17 Threatening Critical
18 Battle Ascendancy
19 Reaping the Slaughterous Harvest 2/day
20 Bonus Feat

Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 5th level, and every five levels thereafter, a Battle Ascendant gains a bonus feat off the list of Fighter Bonus Feats.
Transcendent Edge: At 2nd level, a Battle Ascendant gains a bonus to hit equal to ½ his class level and a bonus to damage equal to his class level.
Reverie of War: At 3rd level, a Battle Ascendant gains a Competence Bonus to his Armor Class equal to his Class Level.

War God: At 4th level, a Battle Ascendant gains the War Portfolio, even though he is not a god. He uses his Class Level in place of his Divine Rank to determine the benefits.

Battle Mastery: At 6th level, a Battle Ascendant refines their chosen style. They gain one of the following benefits based on which suite of feats they used to qualify for Battle Ascendant.

• Abandon Blow: A Battle Ascendant fighting with a two-handed weapon may take a maximum penalty on attack rolls when using Power Attack equal to double his Base Attack Bonus.
• Blade Tempest: A Battle Ascendant fighting with multiple weapon adds +1d6 damage per class level to all attacks.
• Arrow Storm: A Battle Ascendant fighting with a ranged weapon may make 2 Manyshot attacks as a Standard Action.

Superior Critical: At 7th level, a Battle Ascendant’s Critical Threat Range with all weapons is quadrupled.

Martial Lord: For a number of rounds per day equal to his Class Level, an 8th level or higher Battle Ascendant may maximize all dice rolls in combat. Note: these rounds need not be used consecutively.

Reaping the Slaughterous Harvest: At 9th level (and every ten levels thereafter) a Battle Ascendant may enter a state of godlike martial skill. This state last for a number of rounds equal to his Class Level. While Reaping the Slaughterous Harvest, a Battle Ascendant may move his speed as a Swift Action and may take two full attacks in a single Full Attack Action.

Superior Critical Multiplier: At 11th level, a Battle Ascendant’s Critical Multiplier with all weapons is quadrupled.


Battle Supremacy: At 12th level, a Battle Ascendant becomes a paragon of his chosen style. Their ability from Battle Mastery improves as follows:

• Sacrificial Blow: A Battle Ascendant fighting with a two-handed weapon may take a maximum penalty on attack rolls when using Power Attack equal to four times his Base Attack Bonus.
• Blade Sirocco: A Battle Ascendant fighting with multiple weapons adds +1d12 damage per class level to all attacks.
• Arrow Gale: A Battle Ascendant fighting with a ranged weapon may make 4 Manyshot attacks as a Standard Action.

Ten Thousand Years of Battle: A 13th level Battle Ascendant is nearly impossible to kill. All his Hit Dice become d20s.

Messiah of War: A 14th level Battle Ascendant gains the Double War Portfolio, using his Class Level as his Divine Rank to determine the benefits.

Martial Titan: A 16th level Battle Ascendant may become invincible for a number of rounds per day equal to his Class Level. During this time, he cannot be harmed by any effect, nor do the effects take affect when he leaves the Martial Titan state. Note: these rounds need not be used consecutively.


Battle Ascendancy: An 18th level Battle Ascendant has transcended the abilities of gods. In his chosen style, he has no equal anywhere in the multiverse. His ability with that style improves as follows:

• Oblivion Blow: A Battle Ascendant fighting with a two-handed weapon may take a maximum penalty on attack rolls when using Power Attack equal to his total Attack Bonus.
• Blade Holocaust: A Battle Ascendant fighting with multiple weapons adds +2d10 damage per class level to all attacks.
• Arrow Cataclysm: A Battle Ascendant fighting with a ranged weapon may make a number of Manyshot attacks as a Standard Action equal to his Base Attack Bonus divided by 5.

[Belzamus]

Godslayer

Hatred can be a powerful weapon, when channeled correctly. It can inflict vile curses, horrifying ravages, and even scar the soul of its victim, depending on whence the animosity is directed and how virulent the hatred’s insidious malice truly is. And from the loathsome, vile despite of the divine is a Godslayer born.

Only a being who devotes the entirety of its soul to the opposition and destruction of the divine can qualify to become a Godslayer. However, even with the sufficient deicidal impulses, an aspirant to Godslaughter must spend long and darksome hours perusing ancient and reprehensible texts concerning the true nature of divinity and the inherent faults of the same.

A Godslayer is the anathema of all things that possess the Divine Spark. He is a brooding, morose entity that exists only as a cosmic murderer. He wields fell and terrible power beyond mortal or divine comprehension. Within his soul burns an imperishable flame of utter stygian hollowness punctuated solely by his total and uncompromising lack of piety.

A Godslayer does not simply hate divine beings, as does an Ur-Priest, or disbelieve in them to mock their power, as does a Defiant of the Athar. No; he denounces their lordship with the esoterica of aeons-hidden deicidal elucidation, and the ichor of eternal beings stained indelibly into his blasphemous sword.

Godslayer’s come from a predominantly martial background, as magic is notoriously known to be a construct of the divine. Some Psychic Warriors who discover secrets of divine failure take up the Godslayer’s loathsome mantle, however, their ranks are dominated primarily by Blackguards, Paladins of Tyranny and Slaughter, and Ur-Priests.

Prerequisites
Base Attacks Bonus: +45
Skills: Knowledge (Religion) 63 Ranks, Knowledge (The Planes) 63 Ranks
Feats: Evil Brand, Vile Martial Strike, Dark Speech
Special: The character may not possess Divine Rank.

Hit Dice: d10
Base Attack Bonus: Full
Skill Points: 4+ Intelligence Modifier
Skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (The Planes), Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Track

1 Anathema Cloak, Antidivinity, God Hunter +4
2 Divine Spell Resistance, Smite Immortal 1/day
3 God Hunter +8
4 Smite Immortal 2/day
5 God Hunter +12, Eldritch Curse
6 Smite Immortal 3/day
7 Atheist Paroxysm, God Hunter +16
8 Smite Immortal 4/day
9 Godslaughter, God Hunter +20
10 Godblight, Smite Immortal 5/day

Anathema Cloak: A Godslayer is a void upon the divine matrix that underlies the Multiverse. This ability is identical to the Apocrypha Divine Ability.

Antidivinity: A Godslayer knows the cosmic secrets that fuel a deity’s power and is resistant to their inherent divinity. He gains resistance to Divine Damage equal to his Godslayer level x10.

God Hunter: A Godslayer knows how to kill Immortals and excels at fighting them. He gains a +4 to attack and damage rolls against divine beings, including the Proxies or Avatars of a deity. This also allows him to qualify for the Bane of Enemies (Immortals) and Death of Enemies (Immortals) Epic Feats, even if he has no other favored enemies. These bonuses increase by +4 for every 2 Godslayer levels beyond 2nd.

Divine Spell Resistance: A Godslayer is preternaturally inured to divine magic thanks to his despicable training. He gains a Spell Resistance of 10+his Hit Dice+his Godslayer level against all spells cast by Immortals.

Smite Immortal: A Godslayer can infuse his strikes with anathematic energies 1/day at level 2, when using this ability, he gains a bonus to his Attack Rolls equal to his opponent’s Divine Rank and deals extra Permanent Damage on his Damage Rolls equal to his Godslayer class levels x his opponent's Divine Rank against any Immortal. He gains one extra use of this ability per day every two levels beyond 2nd.

Eldritch Curse: Once per day, starting at 5th level, a Godslayer may generate a Dead Magic Zone for 1 round per Godslayer level. This zone extends 100 ft. from the Godslayer, plus an additional 50 ft. per Class Level. The Godslayer himself is unaffected by this ability. A Godslayer receives an extra use of this ability at every 10 levels beyond 5th.

Atheist Paroxysm: Once per day, a 7th level Godslayer can emit an inhibitive sphere of apostasic energy. This field emanates from the Godslayer and extends 100 ft. from the Godslayer, plus an additional 50 ft. per Godslayer level. This ability functions as the Divine Nullification Transcendental Ability and lasts for a number of rounds equal to the Godslayer’s class level. A Godslayer gains an additional use of this ability for every 10 levels beyond 7th.

Godslaughter: A 9th level Godslayer is so mightily steeped in the lore of deicide that he can openly defy and challenge divine entities as can no other mortal. He possesses an Divine Rank equal to 1/2 his Godslayer Class Level for purposes of overcoming an opponent’s Cosmic String.

Godblight: At 10th level, a Godslayer becomes a true bane of the divine, a theological nightmare that warps the nature of Divinity itself. All Immortals within 100 ft. +50 ft per Godslayer level lose their Divine Bonus. In addition, the Godslayer gains a Divine Bonus equal to the that of the most powerful Immortal affected by this ability.

[Belzamus]

Seneschal

Hand of the divine, mortal emissaries of heaven’s fury, the Senecheaux are soldiers of retribution directly sponsored by their deities to mete out judgment and vengeance upon enemies of the faith.

Though not entirely divine, as they progress through the Senechal prestige class, the Senecheaux become more and more akin to their Immortal benefactors. They are holy warriors, crusaders for their lords, and gain the power to cast down powerful opponents of their god.

They specialize in dealing with mighty outsiders in the service of rival deities, while some overzealous Senecheaux have been known to assault enemy gods themselves, though the effort is commonly a terrible waste of the Senechal’s life.

Senecheaux are singular warriors, traveling and working alone except in rare instances where they might cooperate with other powerful servants of their god such as epic clerics, disciples, prophets, or hero-deities. They are generally considered divine vassals and held in the faith’s authority second only to the Immortal they serve.

Senecheaux are generally chosen from their god’s favored race, though exceptions are known, especially in the case of certain powerful outsiders such as Solars or Concordant Killers being chosen for the role, though such occurrences are rare indeed. They generally come from a martial-spiritual background and as such are culled from the ranks of crusaders, clerics, favored souls, and paladins.

Prerequisites:
Base Attack Bonus: +45
Feats: Gift of Faith, Great Smiting, Words of Creation
Skills: Knowledge (Religion) 63 Ranks, Knowledge (The Planes) 63 Ranks
Spellcasting: Must be able to cast Divine Spells
Special: A character must have slain an Abomination

Hit Dice: d20
Base Attack Bonus: Full
Casting: Full Divine
Skill Points: 4+Intelligence Modifier
Skills: Concentration, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (the Planes), Sense Motive

1 Godly Grace
2 Smite Anathema,
3 Shielded Soul
4 Heaven’s Armor
5 Miracle of Faith
6 Divine Blessing
7 Holy Haste
8 Ether’s Aegis
9 Sublime Health
10 Apotheosis



Godly Grace: A 1st level Seneschal gains a Divine Bonus to all of his saving throws equal to his Class Level.

Smite Anathema: Once per day, beginning at 2nd level, a Seneschal may call down Heaven’s Wrath upon an enemy whose alignment (either moral or ethical) opposes his own. He gains a Divine Bonus on the attack roll equal to his Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma Modifier, whichever is highest, and a Divine Bonus on the damage roll equal to his Seneschal class level x 10. The Seneschal gains an additional usage of this ability every two levels beyond 2nd.

Shielded Soul: A 3rd level Seneschal gains a Spell Resistance equal to 10+ his Hit Dice + his Class Level.

Heaven’s Armor: A 4th level Seneschal gains a Divine Bonus to his Armor Class equal to his Class Level.

Miracle of Faith: A 5th level Seneschal becomes Immortal, needing no longer to breathe, eat, or sleep. Nor is he subject to abilities which specifically target mortals.

Divine Blessing: A 6th level Seneschal gains a Divine Bonus to all ability scores equal to his class level.

Holy Haste: A 7th level Seneschal has their movement speed doubled for all forms of movement.

Ether’s Aegis: An 8th level Seneschal becomes immune to Ability Drain, Ability Damage, Death Effects, and Negative Energy Effects. He also treats Vile and Permanent damage as regular damage.

Sublime Health: A 9th level Seneschal gains maximum Hit Points per Hit Die.

Apotheosis: A 10th level Seneschal becomes the perfect servant of his god. He gains a single Divine Ability of his choosing.

[Kerrick]

I've got a few low-epics, but nothing as high as you've got. Just a few comments...

The BA is probably a bit too powerful. And... why does he get his most powerful ability at 18 instead of 20? I'd just give him scaling abilities at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th.

Godslayer is missing the Godblight description. And what's the Apocrypha divine ability? Not all of us have that book. Also, I'd drop the resistance to divine power to 5 x level.

The Seneschal (which you continually mispelled throughout the description) is rather underpowered and underwhelming. The concept is good enough, but the class as written is suitable for low-epic at best, and even then I probably wouldn't bother. It needs abilities geared toward battling divine foes; I'd replace haste and immortality with something better (combat abilities like bypass DR), and give him DvR 0 at L10.

[Belzamus]

Let's see...

For BA, it had more to do with the holistic layout of abilities, I'll have to look for a way to rearrange them so it ends at 20th. In all honesty, it is overpowered, I have a player whose used the class for 2 of the 3 styles and he routinely ended fight in a single round, albeit with an earlier 10-level version of the class, hence it being 20 levels. Maybe adding the War portfolio is too much?

Godblight is described, I just made a mistake and forgot to bold it. It's kind of subsumed into Godslaughter. I'll fix that. Good point on the resistance too, as the Divine Effect does d3 damage, and a Cosmic Effect should probably hurt a Godslayer pretty bad. Apochrypha gives a +50 Divine Bonus to resist Divination effects, by the way.

For Senechal, those aren't misspellings, that's the plural form (at last as far as I'm aware...). I think he does need some more work. However, there is no Divine Rank 0 in Ascension, and it seems odd that a ~70th level character would be a Disciple or Prophet (DvR 1 and 2, respectively) . I think I'll rework it so he gets some better combat abilities, maybe Superior Smiting or whatever the divine ability is. Damage reduction isn't a terrible concern at high epic though, is it? I actually think I should start from the ground up with the class, as it's honestly just a watered-down, spread-out divine template. It DOES however have a really good chasis: d20 HD, Full BaB, and full Divine Spellcasting, which kind of offsets the mediocre abilities. I'd like to hear some more ideas for it though before I work on a new version.

Oh, and I should probably have added a note that these assume the use of Ascension, as that's the ruleset they're designed for.

Thanks for reading and commenting!

[Kerrick]

Originally Posted by Belzamus

Let's see...

For BA, it had more to do with the holistic layout of abilities, I'll have to look for a way to rearrange them so it ends at 20th. In all honesty, it is overpowered, I have a player whose used the class for 2 of the 3 styles and he routinely ended fight in a single round, albeit with an earlier 10-level version of the class, hence it being 20 levels. Maybe adding the War portfolio is too much?

You could easily drop it to 15 levels - just drop the bonus feats. It's not really the number of levels, though, it's the abilities you get. I'll agree - that thing is way overpowered, even for high epic. He can maximize all rolls, which when combined with x2 or x3 PA, effectively ends a combat in 1-2 rounds. He has x4 crit range (pointless, really) and crits (does this stack with other crit-enhancing effects?)

The Battle Supremacy abilities are good (I'd start with PA x1.5 for the first one, then x2, x3, and full); Martial Lord is good (though it might need toned down a bit; maybe 1 round/3 levels?). Giving them the War portfolio without divine ranks is... yeah, a bit much. Also giving them a HD boost in the middle of the class is odd. d12 should be fine, IMO.

Here's a link to an article I wrote a couple years ago about writing PrCs. It should give you some good tips.

Godblight is described, I just made a mistake and forgot to bold it. It's kind of subsumed into Godslaughter. I'll fix that.

Aha. I just kind of skimmed over these this morning, so I didn't see it. And oh my god... wow. Instead of having them LOSE their bonus, how about giving the Slayer an effective DvR equal to his class level? IIRC, only a being of equal or higher rank can slay a divine being (UK rules), so this makes sense.

Apochrypha gives a +50 Divine Bonus to resist Divination effects, by the way.

Ah, I thought it was something like immunity to all divine effects (which would be kind of cool - you can't be healed by a cleric, e.g.).

For Senechal, those aren't misspellings, that's the plural form (at last as far as I'm aware...).

No, that's not what I meant. It's "seneschal". You spelled it properly in the flavor text, then leave out the second S all through the rest of the text.

I think he does need some more work. However, there is no Divine Rank 0 in Ascension, and it seems odd that a ~70th level character would be a Disciple or Prophet (DvR 1 and 2, respectively).

I don't have Ascension (obviously), so I can't really help you there.

Damage reduction isn't a terrible concern at high epic though, is it?

Probably not, but you'd have to ask UK on that one.

I actually think I should start from the ground up with the class, as it's honestly just a watered-down, spread-out divine template. It DOES however have a really good chasis: d20 HD, Full BaB, and full Divine Spellcasting, which kind of offsets the mediocre abilities. I'd like to hear some more ideas for it though before I work on a new version.

You should really combine this with the Godslayer, since they're effectively the same thing. You've got enough abilities between the two to make a decent class; call it a Holy Avenger or something, and replace some of the more overpowered Godslayer abilities with stuff from the Seneschal.

[Belzamus]

Originally Posted by Kerrick

You could easily drop it to 15 levels - just drop the bonus feats. It's not really the number of levels, though, it's the abilities you get. I'll agree - that thing is way overpowered, even for high epic. He can maximize all rolls, which when combined with x2 or x3 PA, effectively ends a combat in 1-2 rounds. He has x4 crit range (pointless, really) and crits (does this stack with other crit-enhancing effects?)

Heh, you should check out Ascension sometime. Neither of those are really that out of line...powerful, yes, possibly too much as class abilities, but both those that you mentioned already exist. In fact, one can get x5 crit/multiplier with Perfect Critical/Multiplier, granting 16-20/x16, 11-20/x11, or 6-20/x5.

And, no, those don't stack, there's no point. (I think U_K actually says that they do, but, do you really need a negative threat range?)

The Battle Supremacy abilities are good (I'd start with PA x1.5 for the first one, then x2, x3, and full); Martial Lord is good (though it might need toned down a bit; maybe 1 round/3 levels?). Giving them the War portfolio without divine ranks is... yeah, a bit much. Also giving them a HD boost in the middle of the class is odd. d12 should be fine, IMO.

Let's see, you're suggesing 4 tiers of combat style upgrades? Interesting. 4 is certainly a more aesthetically pleasing number than 3 in this case.

I'm cutting the double War portfolio I've decided, it's way too much.

For the HD, I'm torn, because a BA would be in a party with Immortals who will have not only full d20 HD but maximum HP per HD, meaning he'll likely lag behind in HP significantly...or not, since he'll likely have full HD for his ECl rather than 1/2 and the other 1/2 taken up by a divine template. On second thought, I think that can go too, I'll have to do some tests to see how the numbers generally work out to see for sure.

Here's a link to an article I wrote a couple years ago about writing PrCs. It should give you some good tips.

Thanks, there looks to be some good stuff in there.

Aha. I just kind of skimmed over these this morning, so I didn't see it. And oh my god... wow. Instead of having them LOSE their bonus, how about giving the Slayer an effective DvR equal to his class level? IIRC, only a being of equal or higher rank can slay a divine being (UK rules), so this makes sense.

I...believe that only applies to entities with a Cosmic String but I could be mistaken. Also, I don't want the GS class to overlap with my Deicide portolfio (which is somehwre on this board) which gets the ability you mentioned. It is quite powerful, I know, but it's his capstone. Looking at it further though, it's basically a Trans ability and then some. I should probably cut the last line, as its excessive.

Ah, I thought it was something like immunity to all divine effects (which would be kind of cool - you can't be healed by a cleric, e.g.).

Maybe I should add something like that in, which raises another point.

Do you think his Divine Spell Resistance should be against actual Divine spells (as in from the cleric list) or against spells cast by Immortals? They both have their merits...maybe both?

No, that's not what I meant. It's "seneschal". You spelled it properly in the flavor text, then leave out the second S all through the rest of the text.

How...odd. My MS word must think that's the correct spelling for some reason. I will endeavor to fix that at some point.

I don't have Ascension (obviously), so I can't really help you there.

I'd reccomend it, even in its unfinished state. My favorite d20 purchase I ever made.

Probably not, but you'd have to ask UK on that one.

Well, let's see, the Greay Wyrm Nexus Dragon in the bestiary has a DR 680/Cursed and is CR 680. Looking at the closest Sidereal I have statted up to that level (ECL ~650) he does about 60,000 damage a hit, with a 55% chance of critting for 360,000 on 64 attacks per round. That DR might as well not even be there.

You should really combine this with the Godslayer, since they're effectively the same thing. You've got enough abilities between the two to make a decent class; call it a Holy Avenger or something, and replace some of the more overpowered Godslayer abilities with stuff from the Seneschal.

That is something I won't be doing as both classes have distinctive functions in my setting. It's an interesting idea though. I think I'll lower the prereqs on Seneschal to allolw entry at 40th level rather than 60th too. It might be a little better earlier on, along with some other changes I want to make.

I have some ideas for revisions on the BA and the Seneschal, I'll update the original posts when I get them done.

Thanks a lot, Kerrick!

[Kerrick]

Originally Posted by Belzamus

Heh, you should check out Ascension sometime. Neither of those are really that out of line...powerful, yes, possibly too much as class abilities, but both those that you mentioned already exist. In fact, one can get x5 crit/multiplier with Perfect Critical/Multiplier, granting 16-20/x16, 11-20/x11, or 6-20/x5.

And, no, those don't stack, there's no point. (I think U_K actually says that they do, but, do you really need a negative threat range?)

Heh, not really.

Let's see, you're suggesing 4 tiers of combat style upgrades? Interesting. 4 is certainly a more aesthetically pleasing number than 3 in this case.

Yeah, I think doing upgrades every 5 levels would be better.

[qoute]For the HD, I'm torn, because a BA would be in a party with Immortals who will have not only full d20 HD but maximum HP per HD, meaning he'll likely lag behind in HP significantly...or not, since he'll likely have full HD for his ECl rather than 1/2 and the other 1/2 taken up by a divine template. On second thought, I think that can go too, I'll have to do some tests to see how the numbers generally work out to see for sure.[/quote]
You could just give him d20 to start with. My point was that switching HD in the middle of the class was just weird, and totally unprecedented (AFAIK).

Thanks, there looks to be some good stuff in there.

Sure thing. PrCs are one of my favorite parts of 3.5.

Maybe I should add something like that in, which raises another point.

Do you think his Divine Spell Resistance should be against actual Divine spells (as in from the cleric list) or against spells cast by Immortals? They both have their merits...maybe both?

Do them both - have a lesser ability that applies against clerical spells, and a greater one for immortals.

I'd reccomend it, even in its unfinished state. My favorite d20 purchase I ever made.

I think I'll get it at some point. I haven't bothered before now because I have little interest in gods and such, but if I ever get around to converting the divine rules for Project Phoenix, I'll need it.

Well, let's see, the Greay Wyrm Nexus Dragon in the bestiary has a DR 680/Cursed and is CR 680. Looking at the closest Sidereal I have statted up to that level (ECL ~650) he does about 60,000 damage a hit, with a 55% chance of critting for 360,000 on 64 attacks per round. That DR might as well not even be there.

This is one of those times when the lack of smilies really annoys me. I wanted a "jaw-drop" one, but they don't have it.

That is something I won't be doing as both classes have distinctive functions in my setting.

Ah. Well, in that case, you should make them a little more unique. They serve basically the same purpose - killing divine beings; it's just that one is a servant of his god, and the other does it for fun. Give the Seneschal the ability to channel energy, call in divine allies, and maybe even (at 9th-10th level) call on the patron himself in extremis. The Godslayer, OTOH, would have resistance to divine energy, the ability to bypass DR, the ability to ignore divine power (i.e., he could walk into a church and not be affected by a hallow/unhallow), etc. Basically, he's a divine dead zone because of his devout lack of faith (which sounds like an oxymoron, doesn't it? ).

Thanks a lot, Kerrick!

Sure thing.

[Belzamus]

Okay, I'm short on time here, so I can't quote everything.

I like both your ideas for BA, the 5 level advancement and the HD.

Likewise, that's a cool idea for the Godslayer andmaybe I can stretch it's levels out a little too. (Not that there's anything wrong with 10, I just feel that in epic, there's no need for a maximum of 10 any more, especally in U_K's system.)

Even if only for the epic feats, Ascension is awesome. (There's just SO many good ones).

Heh, well granted, he has ~13 million hp himself, so it isn't THAT much damage, though he could easily kill himself. Couple those attacks with infinite reach though and...ouch.

Lastly, those all sound like some really cool ideas to differentiate Seneschal and Godslayer. I like.

Unfortunately, I'm working on a new story now, so my DnD stuff is on hold for a while, but I'll definitely come back to these at some point.

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Belzamus dude!

Great thread. I'll be posting more on it over the next few days. A few of the abilities look a bit annoying (Martial Titan for instance).

If I can find my notes I'll post up the ideas I had for Prestige Classes.

Off the top of my head I seem to recall there was one pencilled down as "Mithril Drinker" who could imbibe metal (visually something like Witchblade its just occured to me) and would gain certain properties.

Necrolater: worshipper of dead gods.

Familiarist: spellcaster with multiple familiars.

I think I had about 15 ideas or thereabouts, I'll see if I can find any notes.

[shadethief]

I like these ideas. Out of curiousity, do you think you could develop an epic level class that mixes both stealth & magic use. Kinda like an epic spellthief, but actually useful.

[Kerrick]

Originally Posted by Belzamus

Okay, I'm short on time here, so I can't quote everything.

I like both your ideas for BA, the 5 level advancement and the HD.

Cool.

Likewise, that's a cool idea for the Godslayer andmaybe I can stretch it's levels out a little too. (Not that there's anything wrong with 10, I just feel that in epic, there's no need for a maximum of 10 any more, especally in U_K's system.)

I wouldn't go more than 15, really - 20 levels is more of a base class than a PrC. I've got a few 15-tier PrCs, but those are mainly because I had too many abilities to cram into 10.

Heh, well granted, he has ~13 million hp himself, so it isn't THAT much damage, though he could easily kill himself. Couple those attacks with infinite reach though and...ouch.

13 million. Yow.

Lastly, those all sound like some really cool ideas to differentiate Seneschal and Godslayer. I like.

It's like I said in the article - think of a theme for the class, then come up with abilities that fit it. It makes things a lot easier.

Originally Posted by Upper_Krust

Off the top of my head I seem to recall there was one pencilled down as "Mithril Drinker" who could imbibe metal (visually something like Witchblade its just occured to me) and would gain certain properties.

Cool... something like that mutant who gains the properties of whatever material he touches?

Originally Posted by shadethief

I like these ideas. Out of curiousity, do you think you could develop an epic level class that mixes both stealth & magic use. Kinda like an epic spellthief, but actually useful.

Hmm. That's a good idea... are you looking for something assassin-like, thief-like, or just stealthy in general?

[shadethief]

Acutally, somethingto incorporate all three. With some abilities allowing him to steal attribute points, special qualities, etc. I'm just not that well veresed in creating something relatively balanced. Maybe shoot for around a 5oth level PC to meet the requirements. Using abilities like Hide in Plain Sight, somehow combine Death Attack to work with the Steal Spell abilities from the spellthief. Just a few ideas.

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya shadethief mate!

Originally Posted by shadethief

Acutally, somethingto incorporate all three. With some abilities allowing him to steal attribute points, special qualities, etc. I'm just not that well veresed in creating something relatively balanced. Maybe shoot for around a 5oth level PC to meet the requirements. Using abilities like Hide in Plain Sight, somehow combine Death Attack to work with the Steal Spell abilities from the spellthief. Just a few ideas.

I really should have finished my revision of the 3.5E Rogue Class (as I did with the Fighter and Barbarian).

[shadethief]

Truth be told, your version of the rogue was the one I was looking forward to the most. One day, perhaps I'll get to see what ideas you had in mind for sneaky mother's like myself....

[Kerrick]

Originally Posted by shadethief

Acutally, somethingto incorporate all three. With some abilities allowing him to steal attribute points, special qualities, etc. I'm just not that well veresed in creating something relatively balanced. Maybe shoot for around a 5oth level PC to meet the requirements. Using abilities like Hide in Plain Sight, somehow combine Death Attack to work with the Steal Spell abilities from the spellthief. Just a few ideas.

I don't know if I could do something that high level, since I'm not really familiar with immortal play, but here are some ideas...

Touch attack to "steal" attributes/supernatural abilities.

On a successful death attack that kills the target, you gain one or more of the target's spells known/prepared.

Can expend spell slots (either your own or those stolen; not sure on this) to... go invisible, dimension door, HiPS, or something else thief-like.

The ability to cast spells without anyone being able to detect them (like Subtle Spell, but no Spellcraft check to detect it).

Arcane Death Strike. Not sure what this does, but the name sounds cool... maybe a death strike infused with magical energy?

This would be about 25th-30th level, I think; I'm thinking at least 10-15 in mage and rogue or similar classes.

[Belzamus]

For some reason the concept reminds be vaguely of the Ur-Priest in the Book of Vile Darkness, the actual abilities, not the flavor behind them.

Also, when balancing, keep in mind the Void Incarnate class that's free on Wizards' site (just google Void Incarnate) as it is, right now, THE premier rogue Epic PrC, allowing sneak attacks on every hit and a slew of awesome immunites. This class would need to be as good as that, at the least, if not better. It's more or less undetectable too, so it kind of covers the epic "stealth" role.

The other problem with designing these is to avoid overlapping with abilities that are granted by feats in Ascension, since there's so many of them. I've never built an epic rogue so I'm not to familiar with what they get from Ascension, but I'll try and take a look.

Any idea how the class would interact with Assassin either? What if you had, say, a rogue 3/Wizard 6/Assassin 6/Arcane Trickster 10 going into this? Could the class possibly advance both types of spellcasting? O add the Assassin list to the wizard's? Just a thought.

For Arcane Death Strike...how about you add the level of the spell you expend as a free action to the DC of the Death Attack? (Though that sounds almost non-epic). Deliver Death Attacks as part of a spell? If the target makes their save they take 1d10 damage per your CL? I don't know, I'm just throwing stuff out there.

How about an ability to expend a spell slot to get Xd6 to all Sneak Attacks for that round? (9th level=+9d6)

For a chasis, would you still be looking at d6 HD and medium attack bonus? Obviously advancing Arcane Spellcasting every level too.

I don't know, for some reason it seems like you could build this kind of character well enough even without a specified prestige class. It's gonna have to give some HUGE benefits to make it more attractive than Void Incarnate (which has no Sneak Attack progression, but there's an Epic Feat to mitigate that). It should probably focus very heavily on integrating arcane spellcasting into sneaky abilities, it's just hard to think of good ideas for that concept.

How about allowing Rogue levels to stack for Arcane Caster Level? Or maybe adding in the number of SA dice to it instead?

We need a name too. Any ideas? Occultist? Shadow Sage? Umbra?

I think there should be a variant for Warlock/Rogues too, since that's an awesome combination.

[Kerrick]

Originally Posted by Belzamus

For some reason the concept reminds be vaguely of the Ur-Priest in the Book of Vile Darkness, the actual abilities, not the flavor behind them.

Never seen it, can't comment.

Also, when balancing, keep in mind the Void Incarnate class that's free on Wizards' site (just google Void Incarnate) as it is, right now, THE premier rogue Epic PrC, allowing sneak attacks on every hit and a slew of awesome immunites. This class would need to be as good as that, at the least, if not better. It's more or less undetectable too, so it kind of covers the epic "stealth" role.

Yugh. Okay, some of the abilities (Blank Aura, Blank, Mind, Null Strike) are good. Void Presence is overpowered, and any decent rogue character would already have Imp. Evasion by that level. It's kind of like an epic Shadowdancer, in which case I can see the Mettle abilities. It needs higher prereqs, IMO - I'd put it around L30.

The one I have in mind, though, doesn't even come close to this. The VIn is all about "You don't see me, you don't know me, you can't do anything!", whereas mine (we really need a name for this thing) is "I'm an arcane assassin who uses spell power to enhance my abilities."

The other problem with designing these is to avoid overlapping with abilities that are granted by feats in Ascension, since there's so many of them. I've never built an epic rogue so I'm not to familiar with what they get from Ascension, but I'll try and take a look.

Given the sheer number of feats and classes out there, just about anything you design will overlap with something.

Any idea how the class would interact with Assassin either? What if you had, say, a rogue 3/Wizard 6/Assassin 6/Arcane Trickster 10 going into this? Could the class possibly advance both types of spellcasting? O add the Assassin list to the wizard's? Just a thought.

+1 level of arcane spellcasting class. Simple. Adds to whatever you want.

For Arcane Death Strike...how about you add the level of the spell you expend as a free action to the DC of the Death Attack? (Though that sounds almost non-epic). Deliver Death Attacks as part of a spell? If the target makes their save they take 1d10 damage per your CL? I don't know, I'm just throwing stuff out there.

Adding spell level is a decent ability, though a bit low level. I like delivering a spell as part of the death attack - you can cast the spell (must be standard action or less) and store it in your weapon for up to three rounds; thereafter, if you make the DA, the spell's level adds to the DC. If the target makes the save, it applies against both the DA and the spell; if he fails, he suffers both effects fully. Course, if you're trying to kill someone, it seems like a moot point to put a spell effect into the strike too...

How about an ability to expend a spell slot to get Xd6 to all Sneak Attacks for that round? (9th level=+9d6)

Not bad. Might be a bit powerful, but you could limit it to uses/day, or half the level in dice.

For a chasis, would you still be looking at d6 HD and medium attack bonus? Obviously advancing Arcane Spellcasting every level too.

Every other level - you're already getting badass rogue/assassin abilities, and this isn't a class designed toward pure casters.

I don't know, for some reason it seems like you could build this kind of character well enough even without a specified prestige class. It's gonna have to give some HUGE benefits to make it more attractive than Void Incarnate (which has no Sneak Attack progression, but there's an Epic Feat to mitigate that). It should probably focus very heavily on integrating arcane spellcasting into sneaky abilities, it's just hard to think of good ideas for that concept.

Like I said, different concepts.

How about allowing Rogue levels to stack for Arcane Caster Level? Or maybe adding in the number of SA dice to it instead?

Ehh.... I dunno.

We need a name too. Any ideas? Occultist? Shadow Sage? Umbra?

I'd go with Arcane Assassin, but there's already one with that name. Maybe something Latin, like Veneficus Lamnia (magical blade).

I think there should be a variant for Warlock/Rogues too, since that's an awesome combination.

Yugh, warlocks.

[Belzamus]

Originally Posted by Kerrick

Never seen it, can't comment.

It's in Complete Divine too. They steal spells and SLAs from opponents, similar to a Spellthief.

Yugh. Okay, some of the abilities (Blank Aura, Blank, Mind, Null Strike) are good. Void Presence is overpowered, and any decent rogue character would already have Imp. Evasion by that level. It's kind of like an epic Shadowdancer, in which case I can see the Mettle abilities. It needs higher prereqs, IMO - I'd put it around L30.

Taking into account the Maskim in the Bestiary and its ability to SA on every hit, I'd hardly say that Void Presence is overpowered for an Immortals Handbook game. (I'm assuming that's the ability that makes every hit a SA.) Level 30 does seem appropriate though.

The one I have in mind, though, doesn't even come close to this. The VIn is all about "You don't see me, you don't know me, you can't do anything!", whereas mine (we really need a name for this thing) is "I'm an arcane assassin who uses spell power to enhance my abilities."

I think it's a cool idea, but I think we might have differing opinions on what's too powerful and what's not. My group likes to optimize with Ascension, which already sets the bar high, and that's the system I design for and how I gauge balance, whereas you have your own modified ruleset, right?

Given the sheer number of feats and classes out there, just about anything you design will overlap with something.

Well, it's more to the point that there aren't THAT many concepts for epic feats and class abilities, and you want to avoid an epic PrC being nothing more than a collection of feats.

+1 level of arcane spellcasting class. Simple. Adds to whatever you want.

I suppose.

Adding spell level is a decent ability, though a bit low level. I like delivering a spell as part of the death attack - you can cast the spell (must be standard action or less) and store it in your weapon for up to three rounds; thereafter, if you make the DA, the spell's level adds to the DC. If the target makes the save, it applies against both the DA and the spell; if he fails, he suffers both effects fully. Course, if you're trying to kill someone, it seems like a moot point to put a spell effect into the strike too...

How about the reverse, using Death Attack DC for the spell's DC?

Also, I'm having visions of delivering a Death Attack via Finger of Death.

Not bad. Might be a bit powerful, but you could limit it to uses/day, or half the level in dice.

Uses per day are SO 20 levels ago. I suppose if you're going for a more...mellow game, than yeah, some restrictions should apply. I'm a bit loose as a DM when it comes to that (which I make up for by throwing appalling challenges at the party)

Every other level - you're already getting badass rogue/assassin abilities, and this isn't a class designed toward pure casters.

I don't really agree, but that's fine. I wouldn't bat an eye at getting full SA/DA and full Arcane Spellcasting, especially with a rogue's chasis. It's your idea, though. I don't really have super ninja-mages in my setting, which is what I build PrCs for, so I'm just offering input.

Like I said, different concepts.

True, but what's to stop every epic rogue from taking both?

Ehh.... I dunno.

Well, I prefer to not have worthless abilities that lag 20 levels behind my character level at epic, but whatever. I suppose even 1/2 casting can't hurt a rogue.

I'd go with Arcane Assassin, but there's already one with that name. Maybe something Latin, like Veneficus Lamnia (magical blade).

Your call.

Yugh, warlocks.

Blasphemy!