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I browsed it at the game store yesterday. It's definately different. The way it's presented in the book, character creation is much more modular with a variety of options to choose from but none of it seemed an improvement. Obviously I can't judge just from reading and I didn't look into multiclassing which I understand has been made less crippling.
Has an SRD been released?
__________________ I think we're all bozos on this bus.
Not the SRD we're used to seeing for 3.5. I'm not sure it's been released yet. There's a framework for it at the Wizards site, but it has no information in it. That was a week or two ago when I looked.
That's the set I got. I haven't actually seriously dug into it, but from glancing at it, it looks nice. Trying it out will be the real test.
Q: What is the System Reference Document (SRD)?
A: The SRD is a reference document detailing Terms, Tables and Templates that are
available for license under the GSL. It is a reference document and not a reprinting of the
rules.
So, the SRD lists everything you can use under the GSL, but you have to pull that information from the Core books.
So, the SRD lists everything you can use under the GSL, but you have to pull that information from the Core books.
My understanding is that it is even more restrictive than that. While you can reference the terms in your work, you can't actually pull the rules from your book. So while you could list your monster's stats, you couldn't explain what any of those stats MEAN under the new GSL. They specifically don't want third party publishers creating substitutes for the core books.
I think that the 3.x SRDs did more to help promote d20 (and advance sales) than anything else. It made the information readily available to people who otherwise wouldn't have joined the hobby and allowed 3rd parties to enrich the multiverse.
Trying to keep such tight control over the system is sure to backfire. Torrented pdfs are available by now for anyone who wants them -- they can't fight the dissemination of the information but they can embrace the way people want to use it. Nothing will dampen the enthusiasm for D&D like trying to contain it. D&D players always have enjoyed the creative freedom it allowed.
__________________ I think we're all bozos on this bus.
Obviously I can't judge just from reading and I didn't look into multiclassing which I understand has been made less crippling.
Here is what a user had to say on Amazon about multiclassing:
"4) Multiclassing is non-existent. Multiclassing was another area that WOTC felt was too "scary" for players, so they removed it. The 4ed system for multiclassing instead more closely resembles the Arcane Disciple feat from 3ed -- it allows classes to gain a certain number of spells and powers from other classes. However, you never actually can become a member of the other class. When I tried making three character concepts in 4ed D&D I was thrown up against this wall in two of them -- the system just isn't powerful enough to carry out the builds I wanted."
I believe it refers to a bit torrent, some sort of computer term, however I do not believe it is correct to use it as a verb... though our language changes, especially around technology, so it may be used in this context at the present time without being widespread.
__________________ The natural unintended meaning of any abstract, symbolic language is rhubarb.
I don't think I have ever seen the word "torrent" as a past tense verb. What does this mean?
Assuming this isn't a rhetorical question: a "torrent" is a small text file that when used in conjunction with a BitTorrent program allows users to download files across the 'Net. So, Bob would be suggesting that someone has made PDF files of the books available on the Web for download.
I agree that Wizards seems to be cutting off their own noses here, by discouraging third parties from going to town with 4th edition the way they did with 3rd and 3.5e. From a personal example, there were several systems I preferred for various genres before D20 came out. Now, my preferences are all D20 variants tailored to a given genre, such as Mutants & Masterminds for superheroes (instead of, say, Hero)
It could just be me, but 4th edition seems tailored to a very specific type of gaming experience and is less open-ended than other versions of D&D. I have the PH and the DMG and I have yet to see anything that makes me want to start playing the game -- certainly nothing that makes me want to give up 3.5. It just feels very rigid to me.
I suspect that while D20/3e/3.5e exerted a very unifying force on the gaming industry, the 4th edition version will cause a massive splintering again. I know I plan to support Paizo's Pathfinder game, rather than 4th edition.
Last edited by thormagni; 10th July 2008 at 03:02 AM..
I really see the Wizards/4th edition/D20 situation much like the personal computer industry of 15-20 years ago. They don't want to become IBM in the PC market - watching other people profit and take over a market that they actually created, nurtured and designed.
I know I plan to support Paizo's Pathfinder game, rather than 4th edition.
And I also realize the irony of buying 2/3 of the available D&D 4th edition books and then saying that I don't plan to support them. Since it looks an awful lot like I am actually supporting them. But I can't imagine buying the 4th edition equivalent of the shelf-full of books that I have for 3.5.
Assuming this isn't a rhetorical question: a "torrent" is a small text file that when used in conjunction with a BitTorrent program allows users to download files across the 'Net. So, Bob would be suggesting that someone has made PDF files of the books available on the Web for download.
Thanks. I have never heard of this. Do all of you have this program? Is it similar to LimeWire?
It could just be me, but 4th edition seems tailored to a very specific type of gaming experience and is less open-ended than other versions of D&D. I have the PH and the DMG and I have yet to see anything that makes me want to start playing the game -- certainly nothing that makes me want to give up 3.5. It just feels very rigid to me.
Probably true, but I want to see it for myself. Plus, I like the idea of having all the editions.
I really see the Wizards/4th edition/D20 situation much like the personal computer industry of 15-20 years ago. They don't want to become IBM in the PC market - watching other people profit and take over a market that they actually created, nurtured and designed.
Thanks. I have never heard of this. Do all of you have this program? Is it similar to LimeWire?
I'm not really familiar with LimeWire. My impression was that it worked like Kazaa/Grokster, in that there is a central Web site shuttling the information back and forth.
Torrents are more decentralized. You use a Web site to find out what Torrents are flying around the Net and download the little text file that tells your BitTorrent program where to go to get the files you want. But taking down the search engine doesn't keep the Torrents from flowing.
And instead of downloading from one other person, as I recall Kazaa/Grokster did, with a Torrent you are downloading different pieces from different users at the same time as you are giving out different pieces to different users. The faster you upload, the faster it lets you download.
Torrents are the current hot way to do Peer 2 Peer, but some Internet providers are already experimenting with blocking the port torrents stream on. Comcast, I have read, is doing that in some areas.
It's the constant arms race. Pirates find a route, the authorities move in to cut that off and the pirates move to a new route.
Here is my opinion for 4th Edition so take it for what it is worth.
I have read through the books, but have not played it.
It is geared towards selling minis and having people play "roles" in the group i.e. tank, commander, artillery etc.
It seems like you can only play your role as defined by Wizards. You can't be the commander/leader of the group and the wizard/artillery. It is one or the other. Like I said, I haven't played so there may be ways to work this out.
Honestly, when I was reading through it all it reminded me of playing guantlet on the PS2.
I am a big fan of flexibility and have mentioned before that I am leaning towards a point buy system that lets players decide whether they want to spend all of their points to have 2nd level wizard spells at 2nd level with only 1d4 hit points or to take the normal progression path.
I am greatly disappointed with 4th edition. When 3rd edition came out I had hundreds of character ideas with that system. With 4th edition, I have none. I don't know how I would convert any of my 3rd edition characters and I am not interested in playing 4th edition at all.
I have always felt that, say what you want about 3E, it allowed for a great deal of player creativity. Bob and others were coming up with dozens of feats. I (and others here) created my own prestige classes. It was enjoyable, and though it had flaws, I still prefer it to anything else I have yet played.
__________________ The natural unintended meaning of any abstract, symbolic language is rhubarb.
I am greatly disappointed with 4th edition. When 3rd edition came out I had hundreds of character ideas with that system. With 4th edition, I have none. I don't know how I would convert any of my 3rd edition characters and I am not interested in playing 4th edition at all.
I completely agree. That is EXACTLY the way I feel. I am totally "bleh" on 4th edition and have NO character ideas that pop to mind for me.
The complete focus on combat roles just makes me scratch my head. There has always been a dichotomy between what a pen-and-paper game meant by a "roleplaying game" and what a computer game meant when it was called a "roleplaying game." It is like Wizards just decided, "OK, you computer guys win."
It seems to me like every player gets to make some minor choices in creating their combat avatar. I get the same amount of personality feeling in my character choices in D&D 4e that I do in any computer RPG.
I'm sure I just sound like a dinosaur, but I've been buying and loving versions of D&D since 1981. This is the first time the game left me completely cold. Within arms reach I have 40 hardback 3.5 books. And that isn't counting Dungeon or Dragon magazines or adventures. Yet, I have no desire to even buy the Monster Manual for 4th edition. Maybe it is just some previously unknown quirk in my mind but isn't it a problem for Wizards that people like me are getting left behind by 4th edition?
In concept, I was interested in some of the aspects of 4th ed, such as having survivable 1st level characters, interesting adventures from peon to demigod and simpler monster design. But I just can't overcome the general apathy I am feeling toward this game.
I am a big fan of flexibility and have mentioned before that I am leaning towards a point buy system that lets players decide whether they want to spend all of their points to have 2nd level wizard spells at 2nd level with only 1d4 hit points or to take the normal progression path.
True 20 from Green Ronin has really impressed me. I played in one game last year at Gen Con and ran one two weeks ago and really liked the flexibility in character design.
4th edition 
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