Converting Epic Level Creatures

[Shade]

I believe this is different enough from the thunderbird in Sandstorm to warrant its own conversion.

Using the "divide by 4.5" rule, it would have 44 Hit Dice.

[freyar]

Cool, like an electrical phoenix. Magical beast or outsider? I lean toward Outsider.

[Shade]

Since the phoenix is a magical beast, I'm leaning that way.

[demiurge1138]

Outsider (native), I think.

[freyar]

I think the Outsider bit may be due to some of the Pathfinder divine heralds (I'm looking at the night monarch). Given the phoenix and this

This creature is never invoked. It always comes of its own will and does not leave until the battle is done.

I think I'll go back toward Magical Beast.

[demiurge1138]

I still like native outsider, because it conveys that the thunder bird is "special" compared to other monsters of its ilk (think Pathfinder's wendigo). Also, there's very few native outsiders, so I kind of want to rectify that.

[Shade]

Let's try it out as outsider and see where it goes. That will help further differentiate it from the "lesser" thunderbirds.

Let's move on to ability scores....

Thunderbird (H): Str 28, Dex 17, Con 22, Int 12, Wis 19, Cha 17
Phoenix (L): Str 18, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 18, Wis 17, Cha 21

It looks like this fellow is Large, so downsizing the thunderbird stats to Large yields...

Str 20, Dex 19, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 19, Cha 17

That puts it more in-line with the phoenix stats. We know its Int is Genius (17-18), so how about...

Str 20, Dex 19, Con 18, Int 18, Wis 19, Cha 19?

[demiurge1138]

Those stats are pretty low for something with 44 HD, don't you think?

[Shade]

Yeah, probably so.

Here is a sampling of other high-HD critters:

Brachyurus (38 HD): Str 30, Dex 38, Con 47, Int 18, Wis 32, Cha 19 = 184 points
Sirrush (40 HD): Str 42, Dex 40, Con 44, Int 21, Wis 38, Cha 28 = 213 points
Tayellah (34 HD): Str 32, Dex 48, Con 34, Int 14, Wis 32, Cha 19 = 179 points
Tarrasque (48 HD): Str 45, Dex 16, Con 35, Int 3, Wis 14, Cha 14 = 259 points

Perhaps its ability scores should at least add up to 200 points?

Looking at it again, it appears like Con should probably be its highest stat, since its lightning attack will probably be a breath weapon, and thus Con-based. It doesn't appear to be incredibly strong for its size, but I could see a high Dex. Any of the mental stats could be good, due to its genius intellect, superb senses, and apparent courage and willpower.

[demiurge1138]

Agree to crazy Con, high Dex, not stellar Str (only in the ~30 range). The 200 point sum seems like a good thing to shoot for.

[Shade]

How about Str 30, Dex 41, Con 46, Int 21, Wis 33, Cha 29?

[demiurge1138]

Those ability scores appeal to me.

[freyar]

These all look fine by me, too. I'm also fine with lightning as a breath weapon (rather than some version of SLA). If so, is 300 yd = 900 ft reasonable, or should we restrict to 150 ft (the low end of the range)?

[Shade]

Added to Homebrews.

I don't think 900 feet is unrealistic for an epic creature.

SD: Never surprised

It is never surprised because of the warning that its superb senses give the creature.

Improved uncanny dodge and/or improved evasion?

MR: 32%

What an odd number. That falls between CR+7 and CR+8. I'd lean toward the latter.

When it is ready to attack, its wings beat together and thunder sounds.

Some sort of deafening clap or other ability?

This creature is never invoked. It always comes of its own will and does not leave until the battle is done.

Some sort of "unsummonable" ability? Note that not even gates or epic spells can call it?

It has been known to die in several battles against powerful beings, only to appear again years later to confront another evil.

Rejuvenation/rebirth ability?

[freyar]

Originally Posted by Shade

Improved uncanny dodge and/or improved evasion?

Both, I think. It should also have good Spot and Listen.

What an odd number. That falls between CR+7 and CR+8. I'd lean toward the latter.

Go with CR+8.

Some sort of deafening clap or other ability?

Was thinking the same thing myself. We could upgrade greater shout for this.

Some sort of "unsummonable" ability? Note that not even gates or epic spells can call it?

Sure. But maybe it should also have some way to know when nasty evil beings are summoned places, too.

Rejuvenation/rebirth ability?

Yes.

Rebirth (Su): One year after the Thunder Bird is killed, it is reborn at full maturity and in perfect health, and it goes to the aid of beseiged cultures as is its norm. The Thunder Bird is always reborn in the same location, though no one has ever discovered the place.

[Shade]

Updated.

Do we want to borrow any of this from the lesser thunderbirds in Sandstorm?

• talon attacks
• immunity to electricity and sonic
• resistance to acid 10 and fire 10
• Spell-Like Abilities: At will--call lightning (DC 16), fog cloud, shout (DC 17); 3/day--call lightning storm (DC 18), greater shout (DC 21), sandstorm, solid fog; 1/day--earthquake (DC 21). Caster level 15th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

We might also want to incorporate some of this which I found on Wikipedia:

"Clouds are pulled together by its wingbeats, the sound of thunder made by its wings clapping, sheet lightning the light flashing from its eyes when it blinks, and individual lightning bolts made by the glowing snakes that it carries around with it. In masks, it is depicted as many-colored, with two curling horns, and, often, teeth within its beak."

"The singular Thunderbird (as the Nuu-chah-nulth thought of him) was said to reside on the top of a mountain, and was the servant of the Great Spirit. The Thunderbird only flew about to carry messages from one spirit to another. It was also told that the thunderbird controlled rainfall."

[demiurge1138]

I like the idea of controlling weather, through control weather and winds spells, but think that SLAs that do electricity and sonic damage will be redundant. I do like talon attacks and electricity/sonic immunity, though. Not sure about the other elemental resistances, although it would make sense for a critter of these epic proportions.

[freyar]

Definitely talons, immunities, and resistance as above (maybe even stronger resistance). I agree that the electric and sonic SLAs are a bit redundant, but we should add some other weather/druidic type ones. Borrowing from what we did for the sea titan, why not whirlwind and storm of vengeance, maybe SNA IX and/or Mass Cure Critical?

[Shade]

Hmmm...I'd almost rather see a supernatural ability for creating storms, along the lines of "Clouds are pulled together by its wingbeats, the sound of thunder made by its wings clapping".

I can see most of those except summon nature's ally, as I get more of a "I stand alone" vibe for this guy.

Just brainstorming here, but maybe would could pilfer some things from the storm elementals...

Thunder and Lightning (Su): Once per minute as a full-round action, a storm elemental can emit a blast of thunder coupled with a bolt of lightning. The thunder deals sonic damage (see chart) to all creatures within 60 feet of the storm elemental. A Fortitude save halves this damage. The lightning is a 120-foot-long line that deals electricity damage (see table). A Reflex save halves this damage. The save DCs are Constitution-based.

Electrical and Sonic Healing (Ex): Storm elementals take no damage from electricity and sonic attacks. Instead, any electricity attack (such as shocking grasp or lightning bolt) or sonic attack (such as sound burst) used against a storm elemental heals 1 point of damage for every 3 points of damage the attack would otherwise deal. The storm elemental can't heal hit points by attacking itself.

[freyar]

Well, rather than the SLAs, I can see the Thunder part of Thunder & Lightning. Maybe add that it creates a storm of vengeance if it Thunders for 3 rounds in a row or something? I think the breath weapon would account for the lightning, though. I like electric and sonic healing.