Special Conversion Thread: Finishing off giants and their kin

[Shade]

Great idea! Let's take 4 from Survival and 1 each from Spot and Listen, though.

Do we want to include cleric domains for the characters section? I'm thinking Animal and Strength, and maybe Community, Plant, Trickery, or Travel?

[freyar]

Of the 4 choices, I think I like Plant and Community best for these. And I'm always fine with adding domains if we have decent ideas for them.

[Shade]

Updated.

Done already?

[freyar]

They look good!

[Shade]

Cave Lords

AD&D Game: AC 3; Mv 15; HD 6+6; THAC0 15; #AT 3 (claw/claw/bite); Dmg 1d8+2/1d8+2/1d6; SZ H (15' tall); INT Average-Very (8-12); ML 14; AL CE; XP 650. These giants can leap up to 60 feet horizontally and 30 feet vertically.

The word "giant" is a relative term. For humans such as myself, the phrase has definite connotations. "Something much bigger than me" is how most people would probably sum up the word. Something much bigger than a goblin might not seem quite so big to a human or elf. Nevertheless, the goblins have their own giants, and these creatures are a most interesting breed.

These giants prefer that others not call them giants. They prefer the term cave lord, but most goblins continue to call them goblin giants, at least behind their backs. Average cave lords have all of the features one associates with goblins: flat faces, sharp gnashing teeth, pointed ears, and gray-green skin. Their size and intelligence is what sets them apart from the rest of their kind. Cave lords stand 9 to 10 feet tall, although some can grow to as large as 12 feet (making them true giants). As impressive as their height may be, even more impressive is their girth. Cave lords are obscenely obese, often weighing 600-700 lbs. and, in some cases, much more.

Despite their prodigious rolls of fat, the cave lords are actually strong and surprisingly quick. In matters of manual dexterity, they are unsurpassed by any of their weaker goblin cousins. They can move about quickly, especially in combat. No doubt more than one opponent has fallen in battle because they thought the great goblinoid slow and weak.

The cave lord's strength is feared by the other goblins. That fear allows the cave lord to command their respect and loyalty. The most dangerous thing about facing a cave lord is not its strength or speed but its intelligent use of its goblin followers in battle.

The origin of the cave lord remains unclear, although all current evidence points to the theory that cave lords are relatively new to Krynn. Some say the cave lords are the product of some change brought on by the Chaos War, but no evidence to substantiate this theory exists.

The diet of the cave lord is quite peculiar. They are carnivorous, living not only on animal meat but also on the flesh of other goblin races. Although goblins do not normally practice cannibalism, apparently it is acceptable for a cave lord to eat lesser goblinkind, particularly kobolds. Reliable reports state that some cave lords eat as many as five or six kobolds a day. What's more, devouring these goblin morsels is always done in private and is often accompanied by chanting and the burning of strange herbs. This is particularly odd, since goblin rulers usually take their meals communally so that they can display their personal wealth and power by eating more than everyone else.

Another interesting difference is that cave lords appear to hate the sunlight and might even suffer damage when exposed directly to the sun. Although most goblins prefer dark places, they have little trouble moving about during the day. No one has reported seeing a cave lord during the day, even when bands of goblins under its command are doing battle with the cave lord's foes. One explanation is that the cave lords simply do not like to leave their underground homes. In at least one instance a cave lord grew so fat in his throne room that he could no longer fit through the door leading outside.

Readers are advised to take special caution when dealing with these dangerous creatures. They often seem willing to talk and even make alliances with others when, in fact, their hearts overflow with evil and treachery, and no cave lord should be taken at its word. Of course the cave lords are also rumored to hoard treasure, and this tempatation might prove too great for some.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #256 (1999).

[freyar]

Oh, these are kind of fun!

First off, they're actually fairly big despite the first paragraph.

Second, it's unclear to me whether we should go giant or goblinoid. What do you think? After reading all teh flavor, I'm leaning toward goblinoid.

[Shade]

Why not Giant (Goblinoid)?

[freyar]

Ooh, can we do that?

Ok, a little more seriously, bumping a bugbear to large gives Str 23, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 9 with +5 natural armor. Want to fiddle with that any? Leaves +3 for some regular armor.

[Shade]

I see no reason we cannot.

Bumping a goblin to Large yields...

Str 23, Dex 9, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 6

...which is pretty close to the results you derived from the bugbear.

Since these are supposed to be more dextrous than regular goblins, we should go to at least Dex 15.

[demiurge1138]

I think we should bump both the Dex and the Con. Give them DR slashing or piercing (because bludgeoning weapons would bounce off of their fleshy bodies) and sunlight vulnerability (either light sensitivity or Con damage ala derro).

[freyar]

Agreed w/DR and light sensitivity (though you could persuade me toward Con damage).

What about Str 23, Dex 16, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 9?

[demiurge1138]

The wasting in sunlight is just a neat mechanic that's underused. I can gladly settle on light blindness, as per the drow.

Some thoughts on flavor. One: what's the relationship between cave lords and barghests? Both of them fill the "big, cannibal goblin-boss" dynamic. Second: now that kobolds aren't goblinoid anymore, we're going to have to make some minor alterations. Perhaps cave lords direct their goblinoid tribes to raid kobold warrens for delicious captives?

[Shade]

Originally Posted by demiurge1138

The wasting in sunlight is just a neat mechanic that's underused.

I agree, and for that reason, let's use it.

Originally Posted by demiurge1138

Some thoughts on flavor. One: what's the relationship between cave lords and barghests? Both of them fill the "big, cannibal goblin-boss" dynamic. Second: now that kobolds aren't goblinoid anymore, we're going to have to make some minor alterations. Perhaps cave lords direct their goblinoid tribes to raid kobold warrens for delicious captives?

I was wondering that myself. That sounds like a good idea, and the cave lords may eat goblins if enough kobolds are captured to sate their hunger. Talk about motivation!

[freyar]

Con damage it is, then!

Now, I like that flavor! Regarding barghests, perhaps there's a natural rivalry here?

[Shade]

Added to Homebrews.

[freyar]

Any other special abilities? I'm almost inclined to make something out of the chanting and burning herbs while eating kobolds, but that could just be flavor text instead.

[demiurge1138]

Maybe rend, as they seem sort of troll-ish.

[Shade]

I like rend. I'm not sure what to do with the herb bits.

Goblins have a +4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks.
Hobgoblins have a +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
Norkers have a +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.

So how about a +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks?

[demiurge1138]

Sounds good!

I'd be willing to make the chanting and herbs into flavor-text.

[Filby]

A cave lord is about the size of a hill or stone giant, so shouldn't its size be Large rather than Huge?

Also, they're described as "obscenely obese" but have a listed weight of 600-700 lbs.; a hill giant's average weight is about 1,100 lbs., so a cave lord should weigh a good deal more than that.