Special Conversion Thread: Finishing off giants and their kin

[Shade]

This special conversion thread will attempt to finish off the remaining giants, ogres, trolls, and their kin.

Here are the remaining creatures Echohawk has identified as being possible giants:

• Gigantes (Legends & Lore)

[Shade]

Ogre, Stonecrown
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Mountains, hills
FREQUENCY: Common
ORGANIZATION: Tribe or company
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Common low (8-10), Leader/Captain average (11-12)
TREASURE: C, Y
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 2-20
ARMOR CLASS: Common 5, Leader/Captain 3
MOVEMENT: 9, Cl 6
HIT DICE: Common 4+3, Leader 5+4, Captain 6+6
THACO: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 (2 in battle-rage)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Common 2d6, Leader 2d8, Captain 2d10 (or by weapon +6)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Battle-rage
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: Large (9'+)
MORALE: Elite (13-14)
XP VALUE: Common 420, Leader 975, Captain 1,400

Stonecrown ogres run to fat, not surprising considering how much of their time they spend eating. They are crude but powerful, and take a simple joy in killing and destruction. Their rank odor is composed of equal parts grease, filth-ridden garments, and unbathed foulness mixing into a stench like powerful sour milk.

When bored, the creatures and fond of ornamenting themselves with earrings, nose-rings, and other piercings; Stonecorwn ogres find these attractive, and sometimes compliment other creatures that share their tastes. They speak their own language, and leaders and mercenaries often speak the goblin, orog, or common tongues.

Combat: In mass combat, Stonecrown ogres form club-, axe-, or mace-wielding forces that are effective through brute strength. Despite their simple combat style, their enormous strength gives them a +7 damage bonus with any weapon they use. With arduous training, Stonecrown ogres can keep remarkable discipline in battle, until the battle-rage strikes them. The battle-rage is blood frenzy triggered when the ogre's blood is first shed. This frenzy allows them to attack twice each round.

Units of Stonecrown ogres that have worked and trained together for long periods can control their battle frenzy, raging only when they deem it appropriate. The sight of an entire company of ogres going into battle-rage at once has routed more than one army. Alone or in the wilds, Stonecrown ogres are voracious hunters with little discipline and no great cunning. They can climb sheer stone faces through force of willpower alone, often reaching a mountaintop with bloodied hands.

Stonecrown ogre leaders always have maximum hit points and superior armor, generally a form of chain. Mercenary captains have superior armor and often carry Stonecrown arbalests, a type of rock-hurling heavy crossbow. The 10 lb. stones that these arbalests hurl can crack skulls and breastplates; their range is 30/60/120, and their damage is 1d10/2d6, plus an equipment saving throw vs. crushing blow for shields and armor.

Originally appeared in Warlock of the Stonecrowns (1995).

[Shade]

Normal ogres are Str 21, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7.

These guys have a damage bonus of +7, which would give them Str 24-25.

Int is listed as 8-10.

It sounds like they'll have something similar to this ability:

Rage (Ex): A wolverine that takes damage in combat flies into a berserk rage on its next turn, clawing and biting madly until either it or its opponent is dead. It gains +4 to Strength, +4 to Constitution, and –2 to Armor Class. The creature cannot end its rage voluntarily.

[freyar]

Do we know what damage bonus normal 2e ogres have? But, yes, I'd give them Str 24-25 in the absence of any other info. Int 9?

Should the rage be like the wolverine or more like the barbarian? In particular, should it be on a timer or only end when someone dies? I almost see a difference between "wild" and "trained" stormcrown ogres.

[Shade]

The 2e ogre had +2 damage.

The blood frenzy almost sounds more like the frenzied berserker's frenzy ability, with the extra attack.

Regardless of what route we go, I don't want it to be the same as barbarian rage, preferring the "wild" version you describe. Otherwise, they'll essentially be ogre barbarians (bo-ring).

[demiurge1138]

I say Strength higher. If ogres only had a +2 in the past. What 2e giants had a +7 damage bonus, for comparison?

[freyar]

Well, if we want a Str bonus +5 more than the 3.5 ogre, we'll aim for Str 30-31.

I like the idea of the frenzied berserker. We can always tweak back and forth on the wild vs trained bit.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Shade

• Bosk giant (Krynnspace)
• Swamp giant (Krynnspace)

Two more Spelljammer creatures - yay! Somebody poke me when you get to these guys.

(Bosk Giants and Swamp Giants live on the planet Chislev, so it might be worth looking at the Dragonlance god Chislev, and the other two Dragonlance nature gods - Habbakuk and Zeboim for ideas. The Desolation Giant, Half-Giant and (Goblin) Cave Lord from Bestiary of Krynn might also be helpful. I'd say that most Bosk Giants would worship Zeboim and most Swamp Giants, including the Shamen and Druids, would worship Chislev, although this worship could be totally different from the sort of worship these gods get on Ansalon. Some sort of sidebar mentioning appropriate parts of DLCS and HootS could be appropriate. I'd say these creatures are "groundlings" by SJ standards, so they probably don't need anything from Beyond the Moons.)

Originally Posted by Shade

Regardless of what route we go, I don't want it to be the same as barbarian rage, preferring the "wild" version you describe. Otherwise, they'll essentially be ogre barbarians (bo-ring).

There would be some advantages in making them more compatible with "ogre barbarians". Firstly they could get barbarian as a favored class and secondly the barbarian class level could stack with their racial HD for calculating rage.

But you could give them some sort of "Improved Rage" ability that is more like the wild version and replaces the normal rage in Stonecrow Ogre Barbarian NPCs/PCs.

[Shade]

In 2e, hill giants were +7 damage. Hill giants have Str 25 now.

Here's one attempt at modify the frenzied berserker's ability to stonecrown ogres:

Blood Frenzy (Ex): If a stonecrown ogre takes damage from an attack, spell, trap, or any other source, it automatically enters a blood frenzy at the start of its next action, as long as it has at least one daily usage of the ability left. To avoid entering a frenzy in response to damage, the stonecrown ogre must make a successful Will save (DC 10 + points of damage suffered since its last action) at the start of its next action.

While frenzied, it gains a +6 bonus to Strength and, if it makes a full attack action, gains a single extra attack each round at its highest bonus. (This latter effect is not cumulative with haste or other effects that grant additional attacks.) However, it also takes a -4 penalty to Armor Class and takes 2 points of nonlethal damage per round. A blood frenzy lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the stonecrown ogre's Constitution modifier. To end the frenzy before its duration expires, the stonecrown ogre may attempt a DC 20 Will save once per round as a free action. Success ends the frenzy immediately; failure means it continues. The effects of frenzy stack with those from any rage ability the character might have.

While frenzied, the stonecrown ogre cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Intimidate), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can it cast spells, drink potions, activate magic items, or read scrolls. It can use any feat it has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, or metamagic feats.

When a blood frenzy ends, the stonecrown ogre is fatigued (-2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity, unable to charge or run) for the duration of the encounter. If the ogre is still under the effect of a rage ability, the fatigued condition does not apply until the rage ends--at which point the ogre is exhausted, not merely fatigued.


...or, we could go much simpler...

Blood Frenzy (Ex): If a stonecrown ogre takes damage from an attack, spell, trap, or any other source, it automatically enters a blood frenzy at the start of its next action. While in a blood frenzy, the ogre gains a single extra attack each round at its highest bonus when making a full attack. The blood frenzy lasts for the duration of the encounter, after which the stonecrown ogre is fatigued.

[freyar]

These probably shouldn't be so much (or any) stronger than hill giants. Let's stick to Str 25, even though that's not so much stronger than ogres. I could see going to 27 if you want, but that's probably it.

I like the second option, but give it a Will save to avoid frenzy. Then we can say that trained stormcrown ogres get a bonus on that Will save and can make a Will save to initiate the frenzy voluntarily. (The trained bit can go in a sidebar.)

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by freyar

I like the second option, but give it a Will save to avoid frenzy. Then we can say that trained stormcrown ogres get a bonus on that Will save and can make a Will save to initiate the frenzy voluntarily. (The trained bit can go in a sidebar.)

I like the second option too. It is a lot shorter, so is less for a DM to learn. I do like your Will save idea as the alternative would be a bunch of Stonecrown Ogres biting their tongues to cause a point of damage that gives them the extra attack. However, shouldn't the "training" count as a monster feat that is only available to NPC/PC Stonecrown Ogres? I'm thinking something like this:

Controlled Frenzy [General, Fighter]

Prerequisite
Blood Frenzy

Benefits
A creature with this feat has trained itself to go into a Blood Frenzy as a standard action. A Controlled Frenzy is identical to a Blood Frenzy, but the creature does not need to take damage before it can go into the frenzy.

Normal
A creature without this feat can only enter a Blood Frenzy after taking damage.

That could go into your sidebar if you think it works. We could change "A creature with this feat has trained itself to go into a Blood Frenzy as a standard action." to "...as a free action." if you think that is better.

[Shade]

OK. Getting back to ability scores...

Normal ogres are Str 21, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7.

We decided on Str 25. Int is listed as 8-10.

2e ogres had 4+1 HD. These guys have 4+3. Hill giants have Con 19, so I don't want to go that high. So how about...

Str 25, Dex 8, Con 17, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 7?

[demiurge1138]

Those ability scores look okay. I'm personally leaning a little more towards Str 27, but understand a desire to stay lower.

[freyar]

I think the stats look fine. If we want to push Str higher, is there any precedent for some type of ogre being stronger than a hill (or similar type of true) giant?

[Shade]

I don't believe so, although the skullcrusher ogres in MM3 also have Str 25.

What if we compromise to Str 26? It is mechanically the same as the hill giant, but still gives the giant "bragging rights".

[demiurge1138]

Psst. Str 26 has a higher modifier than Str 25.

Really, I'm fine with Str 25.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by freyar

I think the stats look fine. If we want to push Str higher, is there any precedent for some type of ogre being stronger than a hill (or similar type of true) giant?

I had a look in the Monster Indices thread, but although it lists a bunch of useful "All the Different Types of..." threads, there isn't yet one for ogres. Orcs have been done, but not Ogres. If you think this information would help, maybe now would be a good time for the "All the Different Types of Ogres" thread to get made.

[Echohawk]

I did list ogres in the All the Different Kinds of Giant thread, but those are only the ones that are of type "Giant", rather than *all* the ogres.

[Shade]

Originally Posted by demiurge1138

Psst. Str 26 has a higher modifier than Str 25.

D'oh! What was I thinking?

Added to Homebrews.

MOVEMENT: 9, Cl 6

They can climb sheer stone faces through force of willpower alone, often reaching a mountaintop with bloodied hands.

It looks like they have a climb speed.

Stonecrown ogres run to fat, not surprising considering how much of their time they spend eating.

Add 50 pounds to the weight of the standard ogre?

They speak their own language, and leaders and mercenaries often speak the goblin, orog, or common tongues.

Stonecrown ogres speak Giant, and those specimens who boast Intelligence scores of at least 10 also speak Common, Goblin, or Orc?

Mercenary captains have superior armor and often carry Stonecrown arbalests, a type of rock-hurling heavy crossbow. The 10 lb. stones that these arbalests hurl can crack skulls and breastplates; their range is 30/60/120, and their damage is 1d10/2d6, plus an equipment saving throw vs. crushing blow for shields and armor.

Add this weapon as a sidebar? Give stonecrown ogres weapon familiarity with it, or just leave it up to them to take the appropriate Exotic Weapon feat?

[demiurge1138]

I say weapon familiarity. That way, a stonecrown ogre with a level in a full BAB class gets access to it.