Converting prehistoric creatures

[demiurge1138]

Unfortunately, your Sarkastodon does not actually resemble the real beast--neither does the 1e statblock. It's a creodont, which means that it has very hoof-like claws and flat feet. In addition, the placement of the carnassial teeth meant that creodonts couldn't tear up plant matter as effectively as a true Carnivora, making it exclusively a meat-eater (so we should cut those references to it eating the occasional plant matter).

So, as a creodont, Sarkastodon should be slower (say, back down to 30ft) and should have poor claw attacks, if any at all. I would prefer no claws. We should reflect its status as a bone-crusher by making its bite primary and with an SA (and note that I am all for more interesting mundane animals). Something like...

Bonecrushing Bite (Ex): Sarkastodon's jaws are immensely powerful, and can crush bone to pulp. On a successful critical hit, a Sarkastodon also deals 1d4 points of Str damage.

In addition, I am morally opposed to the use of the Improved Natural Attack feat in basic creatures--we're building the thing from the ground up, we should be able to set the damage wherever we damn well please! Improved Critical (bite) strikes me as a good feat for Sarkastodon, especially if we give it bonecrushing bite.

I'm at work at the moment so I can't check my books--are the dire animals in Frostburn (mammoth, glyptodon, smilodon et al) given good Will saves?

[freyar]

I like the Bonecrushing Bite, though I don't know a thing about creodonts.

I also look down on Improved Natural Attack.

[InsanePsychoRabbit]

Bears are plantigrades too.

Wikipedia claims that "The fossilized teeth of Sarkastodon show that it ate a variety of foods, and probably led a lifestyle in some ways like that of modern brown bears."

All the pictures of Sarkastodon that I can find show it with bear-like claws, but I can't find any pictures of its skeleton.

Yes, the dire animals in Frostburn get good Will saves. All dire animals get good Will saves.

[demiurge1138]

That Wikipedia entry also doesn't cite its sources, and goes on to say (as any accurate report on creodonts would, including the Wikipedia entry on creodontia, which does cite) that its teeth would limit its dietary options.

Fair enough on bears being plantigrade. I still prefer a slower speed, though.

Sarkastodon is only known from a skull. Other creodonts known from more complete fossils show stubby little claws.

[demiurge1138]

Let's think about Sarkastodon from a behavioral perspective, in addition to an anatomical one, for insights into statting it.

Despite its superficially bear-like appearance, it had bone-crushing jaws more like a hyena and was big enough to tackle the megafauna of its time, like brontotheres and giant rhinos. Now, there's a population of lions in Savuti, Botswana, that specializes in eating elephants. They're on film, in the Planet Earth series. What the Savuti lions do is they crowd around watering holes in the dark. Elephants have poor low-light vision, so the lions spook them with roaring--if an elephant bolts, the lions pile onto it, bring it to the ground, and start eating it while it's still alive.

What does that say for Sarkastodon? Well, I like the trip suggestion. Since it's not very fast (regardless of whether we settle for 30 or 40 feet), we should give it a racial bonus to Hide and Move Silenty checks, and/or the Stealthy feat. We could leave the spooking the herd as mere flavor-text, or we could give it a roar that induces fear.

[Shade]

Originally Posted by freyar

I like the Bonecrushing Bite, though I don't know a thing about creodonts.

I also look down on Improved Natural Attack.

Ditto here, on both counts.

[InsanePsychoRabbit]

OK, well then, this is a stupid thing to be arguing about. Feel free to make any of those changes you mentioned.

[demiurge1138]

Thoughts on racial bonuses to Hide and Move Silently and/or the roar ability?

[InsanePsychoRabbit]

A +2 bonus is reasonable, +4 at the absolute most. Not too sure about the roar ability, though - the point of Move Silently is not to spook your target.

[demiurge1138]

Well, the idea being get close enough stealthily, spook, make them panic and lose control, strike. Pretty common among modern carnivores, with both cats and wolves panicking the herd to pick off choice prey.

[InsanePsychoRabbit]

But wolves and lions are both back hunters - or do solitary predators do this as well?
Thinking about it again, I realize that you can do pretty much the same thing in Spore if you play as a carnivorous creature, but you still have to be fast enough to catch your prey once you've spooked it. (Then again, real carnivores do generally go for the little sick ones, so...)

I guess my final point is that if we give it both Bonecrushing Bite and Trip, I'm not sure I want to give it another ability.

[demiurge1138]

Fair enough. Roar was just a suggestion. I think it's robust enough without it. Unless Shade and/or freyar are in favor...?

Sarkastodon, v2
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 15d8+75 (142 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +7 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +11/+26
Attack: Bite +21 melee (1d12+16)
Full Attack: Bite +21 melee (1d12+16)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Bonecrushing bite, trip
Special Qualities: Dire, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +10, Will +10
Abilities: Str 33, Dex 13, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Skills: 18 points
Feats: 6
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: -

This brown-furred predatory beast is nearly the size of a rhinoceros. It resembles a melding of bear and cat, with a leonine face and a bear-like body terminating in a long, furry tail.

Although it superficially resembles a bear or cat, Sarkastodon is a creodont, a seperate lineage of carnivorous mammal. One of the largest carnivorous mammals ever to live, Sarkastodon specializes on hunting enormous prey, such as brontotheres and Indricotherium. Its bite can crush bone and its stomach is acidic enough to digest it, leaving little left for the scavengers.

A sarkastodon is 10 feet long (excluding the tail, which is about one-half to two-thirds as long as the body) and 6 feet tall at the shoulder, weighing around 1-½ tons.

Combat
A sarkastodon begins combat from ambush, pulling prey to the ground with trip and beginning to eat while its prey still lives.

Bonecrushing Bite (Ex): Sarkastodon's jaws are immensely powerful, and can crush bone to pulp. On a successful critical hit, a Sarkastodon also deals 1d4 points of Str damage

Trip (Ex): A sarkastodon that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip its opponent (+16 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the sarkastodon.)

Skills: A sarkastodon has a +4 racial bonus on all Hide and Move Silently checks.

I set bite damage at 1d12 because it's what the 1e version had, plus d12s don't get enough love. I suggest we split the skill points among Hide, Move Silently, Listen and Spot, perhaps with Hide and Move Silently getting 4 points and Listen and Spot 3.

Feat suggestions: Alertness, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Stealthy, Weapon Focus (bite)

[InsanePsychoRabbit]

I like the skills and feats

[freyar]

This looks fine to me, too.

[InsanePsychoRabbit]

It looks to me to be at least CR 8.

Advancement 16-18 HD (Large); 19-30 HD (Huge)?

[demiurge1138]

Oh! I forgot an SQ:

Dire (Ex): Sarkastodon is considered to be a dire animal for the purposes of saving throws.

Your advancement suggestion looks good. About CR... 8 seems reasonable. It's got less hit points than a T. rex, but does more damage (am I the only one bothered that a dire bear has a higher Strength than a T. rex?).

[freyar]

That does seem strange. Really tells you how badly the dinosaurs were designed...

[Shade]

Transferred to Homebrews.

And yeah, I agree about the odd superiority of dire mammals over dinosaurs.

[demiurge1138]

So... are we done?

[InsanePsychoRabbit]

Originally Posted by demiurge1138

. . . the opponent cannot react to trip the sarkastodon.)

There's an extra closing parentheses at the end of the trip entry, probably a copy-and-paste mistake.

Originally Posted by demiurge1138

Bonecrushing Bite (Ex): Sarkastodon's jaws are immensely powerful, and can crush bone to pulp. . . .

Also I don't think the comma here is necessary unless it says "and they can crush bone to pulp."

Other than that, I think we're done. I'd like to continue with the prehistoric mammals.